How many rounds is your average combat?

[Etorian]

Question for all you GMs out there. How many rounds is your average combat?

I've been trying to come to grips with thread weaving taking away a turn for our casters and it's bothering me. For us if it goes passed round 2-3 my players start to disengage beyond major climaxes and even then it's iffy.

If a players turn is going last because they are out run by air dance, tiger spring and all the other initiative boosters, wait 30 minutes while everyone does their attack, second attack, momentum swing, claw frenzy, quickshot (as they progress obviously) then either heave a willforce+2 mind dagger or say I "thread weave and stand their looking depressed" and then wait the additional 30 minutes to finally cast. Perhaps they can try to find a utility spell that is low thread but unless it's 1-0 they are still facing the same delay.

They become more interested in BSing and disrupting the group and I can't entirely blame them. God help them if the botch their thread weaving. So at 3 rounds the weave/cast/weave then help mop up the mess made by the physical adepts.

So is this typical or do your combats run longer? Do you run into this same problem with casters? We have always solved it with the 1st edition force casting rules but I'm trying to get our group to try 4th when it comes out and I need ammo to convince them it's an improvement.

[Tanthalas]

At my table that is pretty typical. Threadweaving takes forever in a combat situation and any combat spell requiring more than one thread is next to worthless.

Encourage the party to plan ahead for fights, spellcasters are good buff machines. In combat, they should be wielding a zero thread spell to blast every round, otherwise it probably isn't worth it. Eventually they get enhanced matrices that hold a thread all the time, so they can start blasting with slightly better spells. If you feel like the magicians are still underpowered you can give them a matrix object item to weave to that already has an enhanced matrix in it.

The multi thread attack spells are really only usable when you get the drop on the enemy or maybe if you are fighting a huge and terrifying horror.

[Kasbak]

In games that I have run, I usually get combat that lasts around 10 rounds, sometimes a bit more, mostly a bit less. I do allow force casting, though most of the time players are using single or 0 thread spells in combat anyway. I have had a fairly even mix between spellcasters and fighters, and all in all it does seem to balance out. Fighters hit more regularly, but spells tend to do a proportionate amount more damage.

In the game where I play, combat usually lasts about 3 rounds, and that is at least in part because of spellcasters force casting with huge effect tests (myself included). This group consists primarily of spellcasters, and honestly all but one of the fighter types just gets completely outclassed on damage (main reason he keeps up is because he wields All Biter). Once I hit Journeyman, it became rare that I ever had to spend a round threadweaving before I could cast, and I think that is generally the turning point for us when spellcasters really start to shine.

[Gkeckley]

Depends on the combat some are really quick 1 to 3 rounds. The dramatic fights however tend to last at least 6 rounds and sometimes last 15 to 20 rounds. These are usually the fights where the pcs are having to use every resource at their disposal and are in over their heads. The campaign I am running now I have been running for several years and the group is circle 10-11 with one person really close to 12th. Most people are getting attacks like quick shot and frenzy which honestly has really sped up combat. Seems counterintuitive as the players are rolling a lot more. But they only have to figure out their attack step once and damage step once. Instead of recalculating for second attack or second weapon or momentum attack. Plus you start coming across talents that just end the combat before it starts like Bardic voice. The troubadour in the group has become a down right power house. As a result a lot more fights are only 1 to 2 rounds.
All the casters in my group stick to 0 thread spells or 1 thread spells in an enhanced matrix if they are just trying to damage. There has to be a benefit other than straight damage to be casting a spell that requires you to weave a thread in combat, like doom missile that does damage over time, or combat fury/iron hands to enhance their friends, or death's head after the initial casting you can cause fear as a free action every round, pleasant visions that can take an entire group out of a fight, or steal strength. I also typically allow them access to enhanced matrix objects or enhanced blood matrix objects early on to help them out in combat. The most powerful spell casters I have seen are ones that cast spells that typically do something other than straight damage. Mages will always be behind and seemed underpowered to the melee archetypes like warrior, sword master, and sky raider if they are trying to cast mind dagger, crushing will, ephemeral bolt, ice mace and chain, or spirit grip. The power of the casters come from their versatility and the ability to do things other than straight damage. Once they figured this out they have enjoyed playing the spell casters as much as the melee fighter types.

[Etorian]

Thanks for the replys, interesting we're not the only ones still force casting.

We've only played 1st ed up to this point are their any options for a 0 thread spell that is better than a will+2? It just seems to be a little underwhelming when the physical characters have a weapon modding their strength and then talents on top of that that synergize fairly well.

My party does plan ahead for fights, the players I have will unfortunately either A discard casters all together leaving my out of combat stories/challenges sorely lacking for an expert in Astral/Pattern/Magic Theory. Or B multiclass into self-buffing/swordswinging monsters while still maintaining all the versatility of utility spells which I love as a once in a blue moon niche character build but not as the standard for mages just to satiate their need to "keep pace" with any of the phys ads.

Matrix items are a solution but I don't think it full solves the bigger picture issues. Can claw frenzy still attack rank times? When is it accessible for a beastmaster? Can I still climb a sheer surface with climb and pick locks with no tools? Can I windcatcher off a airship and land safely on the ground?

We've always thought of our games as more tall tales than grounded in gritty realism so I tend to err more toward the fantastic when I let things go. Circle one is a 6' tall lumberjack with a cow he spilled some blue paint on, Circle 15 is a 50' tall Paul Bunyon with a monstrous blue bull.

Is it a consensus of the community that forced casting was just overboard? We will probably just keep the talent knack around if it's gone from the new rules I'm just trying to get my group to switch over so we can enjoy the more diverse character building and explore the mechanics that are being presented for 4th ed. Maybe we are just dinosaurs playing with old rules, but we still have fun! That's the important part.

[Gkeckley]

Kaskak, I am curious as to how your fighter types are doing less damage than the mages. What circles are you playing at? Are you using spell-stacking? The base damage at circle 1 for fighter types is usually a min of step 12 usually closer to 15. Add in the fact that they can use skills to get multiple attacks, giving them 2 to 4 attacks a round. Where mages can cast 1 spell that does on average step 9 to step 14. Then throw in forged weapons that eventually become magical the mages quickly fall behind. A fighter using a magical 2 handed sword is doing step 24 to 27 on average, throw in an aggressive attack or desperate blow they can be doing step 30. Once they get a talent like crushing blow they are doing damage in the low 30's to the low 40's. Using the magical broadsword would be lower around an average of 18 to 20. Add in crushing blow and it step 26 to 28. Once the mage gets will force that helps a lot but it usually is not enough especially once the fighter types start getting crushing blow and down strike. For the mage the best damaging spell that is 1 thread or less that I can think of is ricochet attack which does will +12. So figure a will step 8 +12 + will force of 8. That is step 28. About equal to warrior with a magical broadsword and crushing blow. But the warrior is getting multiple attacks.

[Gkeckley]

Yes frenzy allows rank attacks. However, you declare your number of attacks take the strain up front then your attacks end after your first miss. The beast master gets frenzy at 8. Yes climbing allows you to climb a sheer surface. Yes pick locks creates the tools for you. Yes wind catcher allow you to land safely.
As far as forced casting I disallowed it along with spell stacking. But I have seen them in use and have been thinking about allowing them again.

[Gkeckley]

Ice mace and chain does will +5', ephemeral bolt will +7, spirit grip will +6. For wizards sadly will+2 for 0 threads is about as good as it gets. Crushing will is will+7 with good range but it requires 1 thread. Wizards are lacking in damaging spells. They also have aura strike (1 thread), doom missile 3 threads, razor orb 2 threads, multi mind dagger 1+ thread but only will +2, blood boil 3 threads, lightning cloud 4 threads, and compression bubble 3 threads. The good news is they have several spells that go against mystic armor which tends to be lower than physical armor.

[Etorian]

Good to know. It's about the same spells as in 1st ed. It's close and I'm hoping with the new mechanics (every 5 above roll is a success) we get some creative 0-1 thread spells that could make up the difference. Perhaps a low effect spell that hits additional targets per success and/or a spell that increases in effect as successes are added. Or both in the same spell for one versatile spell that you can crowd control or single target with freeing up matrices for utility spells.

I to banned force casting and stacking for a while, now I just ban or limit stacking. I'm still trying to find a fair limiter on stacking... if anyone has any house rules for it I would love to see what others are coming up with. I tried spells up to Will step, then up to will step/2 round down. The latter worked fairly well. I think if forced casting is bothering people maybe increasing the strain per thread could help. Make the caster really think about if they want to put their body through that kind of hell.

[Etorian]

Kasbak
The games you play in sounds like the pacing of ours. The physical players get outclassed if there is no limiter on spell stacking. I'm interested in the games you run. At 10 rounds are your players worried about strain and karma expenditure and thus holding back on talent use? How many players are there? Or is it the nature of the encounter you build?

I think I would have trouble stretching a fight out that long, though sometimes I'd like to so that duration effects and tactics would play out a little more. I maybe just catering a bit to my group which is 6 players. They say they want a fight but what they want is to dispatch the foe, get to the next one and/or get back to being big d@mn heroes in Bairsaive.