T'skrang Fire-Engines on Boats: some questions

[galafrone]

Hi all
our GM let us found a t'skrang riverboat abandoned since a long time.
we have a T'skrang boatman in the party, so we are trying to have it function again
we searched in the rules (all editions + sourcebooks) but we didnt found a basic info:
for a 20 meters boat, how many kernels we have to supply in the engine to have it running ?
there is a minimum ? a maximum ?
and what is the autonomy of 1 kernel ? or a fill up (if it takes more than 1 kernel) ?
this can have us think if it's convenient or not to take it and run it, or it will be better to sell it to some aropagoi

[Flowswithdrek]

From what I remember reading in the Serpent River book there is more to a t'skrang riverboat engine than simply starting it up with a few kernels of true fire. How they operate is a tightly held secret and and despite recovering several engines from lost ships,all the dwarf engineers in Throal have yet to uncover thier secrets and make one work, so its unlikely you can just start it yourselves with just one t'skrang boat man (unless he has knowledege of Uphandals secrets of fire engines). Of course its your Barsaive so anything goes.

My suggestions would be.

Sell it to the dwarfs in Throal, they will likely pay much more handsomely than the t'skrang (this might cause issues with the t'skrang, and would make qutie an adventure)

Hire a t'skrang crew that knows how to operate a fire engine,then you can challenge anyone on the river for thier share of trade or booty. Don't expect the t'skrang to give up the secrets of thier engines to anyone however, even thier employers.

[Anunnaki]

And watch your backs ... if word gets out that you have found a lost and possibly-operational t'skrang riverboat, the aropagoiya will be scrambling to secure it.

[galafrone]

agree with both of you, but beside "it cant be done" for this and that reason, anyone has a slightest idea on how those boats works ?
i mean, you persons, not toons in the game
even on basic level

oh well, i will dish out reasonable house rules if the secret is so secret that even the orginal designers dont have the slightest idea on it

[Flowswithdrek]

I don’t recall any mention of how it works in the books, but I have often thought of it as a glorified steam engine. The True Fire converts water to steam to drive the paddle wheel. However that’s a bit boring.

Other ways I have imagined it are:

The kernels of True Fire are sealed in the reaction chamber where they come into contact with rods of living crystal tipped with orichalcum. These bleed the kernels of True Fire of thier magical energy in a controlled manner. The magical energy is conducted via the rods to an enchanted chamber where it drives the shaft of the paddle wheel.

The inside of a fire engine is home to an angry fire elemental. The True Fire is only to feed the elemental and keep it alive. When they want power they simply poke the elemental with a big stick and drive it into a rage, releasing enough magical/or heat energy to turn the engine.

The kernel of True Fire is placed in the engine and struck with great force releasing its energy in one mighty blast. This opens a rift to the elemental plane of fire, which is then held open as long as possible by the magic of the engine and the skill/talent of the Engine Master. Those with great skill can keep the rift open for days on end, and are quite literally worth their weight in True Fire!

[Tanthalas]

All the books I have read (all the 3rd edition stuff and large swaths of 1st edition) don't go into details about fire engines. So I think you are more or less out of luck if you want written concrete rules. However, this seems like it was done as a conscious design decision to the system. Finding a mostly intact ship and breathing it back to life could well be the stuff of legends. But the exact details are things that the GM will need to fill out. Which works perfectly because he can now make the challenges for starting up the boat suitable to either your party's talents or the needs of his plot. Win-win!

For the most part I like Flows' concepts and any of them could certainly work. However, binding elementals has always seemed more Eberron to me than Earthdawn.

The real issue at hand is probably what type(s) of magic are responsible for keeping this engine going. It is a complex secret, so you would likely need to bring a lot of different magic concepts from the Earthdawn setting together to get this running.

If it is simply elemental manipulation, my guess would be that you are looking at true water and true fire emulating some sort of steam engine function. Possibly even with true earth holding it (its stated in a few places that Metals are a subset of Earth, so rare metal engines could have True Earth magic) and maybe even True Air to do some pushing. True wood may go into the enclosure holding the engine, but this is a bit of a reach to fit in the fifth element. A few pieces of orichalcum also tend to go a long way in any bit of enchanting.

Alternately, Passion magic may be behind some of its inner workings. As, like airships, the secrets of these were passed down by the Passion Upandal. And Passions strongly relate to the belief = reality concept of magic. If enough people believe that the engine is fixed, perhaps Upandal's magic could work wonders on it. A questor of Upandal could likely greatly further any needed repairs if you wish to keep the vehicle out of the hands of Aropagois.

Thread magic may also play a critical role. I've noticed that all vehicles in Earthdawn always have a Name prominently displayed. Giving them their own pattern. Perhaps threads need to be tied between this pattern and desired crew before the boat's magic finally takes off for real.

Blood magic most likely doesn't play a role, as that is quite a bit of blood magic to account for every steam ship. But if the GM thinks it would make for a good plot point, perhaps an unhatched t'skrang egg is required to kick start the engines. It would explain why only t'skrang 'know the secret' behind these boats. Of course, this solution is pretty grim and should probably be held off unless you are running a particularly dark Earthdawn campaign.

If I was GMing your game I would make you seek out an expert in this sort of stuff, perhaps do a side job for him to convince him to upset the Arapagoi for an untrustworthy band of adventurers like yourselves, and then give you a list of unusual items or spells to hunt down to get this thing functioning. Make it a long term project requiring maybe a dozen adventures to chase after the bits. I also would require that for the engine to truly function you would have to give the ship a Name and either weave it into an existing pattern (make it part of the group pattern most likely) or turn it into its own pattern that your boatmen (or any other prospective captain) would need to weave threads to before it gets going.

[galafrone]

thanks to all, i will pass these info to my gm.
all in all, it's stay indetermined, and probably we will be more sure running a simple oar-and-sail riverboat.
but if it's so "secret", how is there are so many t'skrang riverboats running on this propulsion system ?
even the pirates has it (even if the request for primal fire blocks them to a constant use of the engine, as for description on the nation of barsaive volume 2)

at least imho the secret stays in the construction, not in the daily operations routine.
so there are really few "engineers" that can build them (at least 1 for each aropagoi and probably even more, since the "engine propelled boats are run even by pirates) but basically the majority of the boatmen can run one if they need (and have the mats for doing it)

[Flowswithdrek]

I think the secrets lie with both the construction and the operation. The reason they are kept secrets is because the fire engine is a gift to the t’skrang from the Passion Upandal and to give the Passion’s secrets to a non t’skrang would be akin to treason of the worst kind. The gift of the fire engine raise the t’skrang up and made them lords of the Serpent River, and if the secret got out the t’skrang houses would soon discover they may no longer be the dominant force on the river.

Perhaps if it helps, try thinking of a modern day equivalent. If you found a nuclear submarine or modern battle ship, what are the chances of you actually getting it fully operational without the years of training and experience?

[galafrone]

that's ok. but we have a t'skrang boatman in our group
and HE knows how to do it, otherwise it's discipline what is ?
he has the talent to operate one.
yuo can question his loyalty, his behavior and such
but he KNOWS how to work a fire engine, otherwise there is something in the discipline that has to be reviewed.
dont you think so ?

[Anunnaki]

There's nothing published that goes in the detailed "workings of t'skrang fire engines", sorry. How you want to integrate this into your games, comes down to campaign happenstance and the ever-ubquitous GM fiat.

Bear in mind that the secrets of the fire engine were given by the Passion Upandal to the t'skrang... so knowledge of how fire engines work is something that falls more into the domain of t'skrang Questors of Upandal (and isn't something that has been covered in ED to date, to my recollection). As Flowswithdrek said, passing that knowledge on to non-t'skrang would be racial treason of the worst kind -- even opposing aropagoinya wouldn't condone this kind of thing.

Should the Boatman know how to work a fire engine? Well, that depends on Circle and supporting Talent/Skill Ranks. An Initiate/Novice/Journeyman Boatman would spend more time performing menial duties aboard a ship; once trust is earned, perhaps you get the "honor" of True Fire duty -- helping the engineer stoke the fire engine. Would he know how to restore a fire engine to working duty? I don't know ... that's up to you as GM to decide, really. Personally, unless she or he was a Questor, I doubt it. Keeping a currently-working engine running is VERY different to fixing one (even starting one up would be hard).

Bottom line: the Boatman in your gaming group knows how to work the fire engine if YOU (as GM) thinks he should (I'd use some sustained Half-magic Tests, as a minimum; again, depends on game style). As long as you're all having fun, there's no right/wrong way to handle this.

Hope this helps!

Take kaer, James