[How's this working for you?] Clarifying the LP Award System

[arma]

[Neverbourne]

Thanks for the fast reply (not sure how I missed the high level character in the companion, but I've found it now)

One of my players came up with an interesting money-making scheme. Two of my 3 players required a month of training to finish up everything they wanted to raise, while my third only needed to advance a single circle (one week) so he decided to sell himself out in Throal as a trainer of his newly achieved 2nd circle. With 3 free weeks, at 200 silver a week, he'd walk away with 600s profit. I wasnt sure if this was too much to give him, so I just said he could only find one student ready to advance, but it does raise some questions:

- With crafting, you make a 50% profit (not accounting for increased market value or anything). Should training follow similar rules?

-What sort of negatives should I put on a player willing to sell his talents to any human with a free versatility rank (or is that an acceptable thing for most talents)?

-If players include a master in their background (I usually consider masters to be circle 5-8), should I really charge them 800s to get to circle 2 (600 with the discount for doing a task)?

-Lastly, if the players are ready to level in the middle of an adventure (or even a session), should I discourage them from taking some downtime if the adventure doesnt exactly have a time limit on it?

-I know it only takes 8 hours of meditation and rest to raise a talent (so long as you have the LP), does this include acquiring a new talent? (I know if it's a talent option, you treat it like versatility, but what about discipline talents, do they have to go back to a trainer and pay more silver?)
- Considering that durability is a talent option, if the player didnt purchase it at the same time as circle advancement, is it ok to consider it a discipline talent , or do they have to find a trainer for it (ad will anybody with durability work, or does it have to be the same class as the student)?

I know that ultimately, the game is up to me, and if I want the sky to be pink, and windlings to be 9 feet tall, thats completely up to me, but a couple of my players really get a kick out of learning and debating the rules before we choose to ignore them (or not), and I like to have a little ammo ready for the next discussion.

Thanks again Arma

[arma]

Making money:
You should absolutely allow them to train others or craft stuff to sell. These things go hand in hand, when a Wizard can spend time to enchant himself a new staff, you should allow the others to get something out of the time waiting as well.
You're on the right track by not allowing for an infinite demand, however, as with that there's only one adept looking for 2nd Circle training despite time allowing for three.
This applies to everything really. Just because you can make 1,000 forged weapons doesn't mean you'll sell them, because these are expensive toys used by adventurers and maybe elite military/guards, they're not sold like cookies or bread. If you could sell everything you make, Porsche would produce a gazillion cars per year...

Teaching humans:
Some members of the Discipline may see that as giving away that Discipline's secrets. Depends on the talent a bit. So they may have difficulties with some of their own trainers, or pay them a bit more. But you shouldn't restrict it absolutely. It's jut one other way of "making money".
Note to them that they can often also make money by doing their usual stuff, like a Troubadour taking a gig, a Warrior being a caravan or warehouse guard (and even a Warrior can put up a show like in wrestling competitions etc.).
A good way to get around all that stuff is also not requiring them to buy every last morsel they require.
"The Inn gives you free room and board plus 5 silvers for a performance every evening."
You can find something similar for other Disciplines.

Background trainers:
From the principle of it, yes. But you can also require them to do stuff for the training. A Wizard trainer might require some component for a spell that they have to fetch. If this is within an adventure, it replaces loot. E.g. they find the component, and if they wouldn't have to bring it to the trainer, would normally sell it. Or they may just have to help him out in the alchemy lab, this requires their free time, and so they can't earn any other money. This is more fitting having a relationship with the NPC too. They tell you "he's doing ti for free/cheap because he's my friend. Well, sometimes friends ask you to help them move...
I wouldn't go for discounting parts of the sum, just unnecessarily complicated. You can find something major they'll have to do, and maybe also combine that with the advancement ritual (the optional rule from the player's companion).

Downtime/advancement:
You should allow for plenty of downtime in ED all the time if it doesn't disrupt the adventure, ED requires a lot of downtime for doing all kinds of stuff. If it doesn't hurt, just let them do it.

Learning / increasing talents:
The 8 hours also brings a talent from rank 0 to rank 1 (and for the record, a night's sleep doesn't qualify, it's half a day's work, so you can't do it in the evening by the campfire on the road, you'll have to stop a day, or half a day. It says you can do it twice in a day, but that really fills all the time of the day you have).
But: you don't automatically have it at that rank 0, you got to learn rank 0. Even if it's a Talent Option.
When training for advancement, you automatically get the rank 0 in the Discipline Talent (the one you can't choose) from the 40 hours training. You also get the rank 0 in one Talent Option _IF_ you learn it from the teacher at that time. If you do not learn it from the teacher (because the teacher doesn't have it, or because you don't want to decide, or whatever) you don't have it at rank 0, you don't have it at all, and you cannot increase it to rank 1. You'll have to find somebody who trains you in the talent. That somebody can also be from another Discipline, as long as he has that talent (this is why it's supposed to work like Versatility). So you'll be charged again, and you're spending time again. And both may be as much as the initial 40 hours plus whatever you got to pay. You'll usually make that dependent on the talent (for casters, learning an additional matrix may be quick, for example. Or learning Melee Weapons may be cheaper than learning a high-circle talent.)
Durability, I can't say for certain how we errata'd that right now. You'll only get what your Discipline allows anyway, but I think you can learn it from anyone. Just like any other Talent Option, you _will need_ training, in any case. If you consider it essential anyway, you will learn it right away anyway, though. It's pretty much included in the advancement training for 2nd circle, since almost every trainer will have it.

[Slimcreeper]

So to clarify: If you were to have a very tough conflict-heavy session, one with lots of battles or tense negotiations or sneaking around monsters and traps that could incinerate you with a puff, according to this system you give one conflict award, but it's just further up on the award scale? Or if you have a fight with scorchers, and it is a 1st Circle award, and then you have to sneak past a dragon and it's a 5th Circle award, do you add the awards together to know what the conflict award is for the session?

Mind, I don't have the 3rd ed books, just the classic and a lot of vintage.

[arma]

[Neverbourne]

Is there a way to Sticky this (and any of your other rules clarification posts). I have found this post most useful, and send all fledgling GMs here to read it.

Thanks for the great post,
Neverbourne

[kosmit]

Hmmm... One of my players killed Lightning Lizard with lucky shot while being at 2nd Circle. So I shouldn't give LP for creature Circle, but base it on character Circle? Of course I can just go aroud it and award it as heroic deed

Generally I like to give more LP than it's written just because I want my players to advance more quickly (and despite that they are still 2nd Circle but with talents at 3-4 after 12th sessions - year of playing )

[Telarus_KSC]

I would give him the Max amount for Conflict Award for 1st Circle (and then, as you said, pad this with a Heroics award).

[arma]

[kosmit]

My players dont pay for Karma with LP. A lot of GMs do that

But I was planning downtime anyway, so 4th Circle by the 15th session is possible