disciplines beyond the player book

[Sangius]

My GM and I have had a meeting now and spent some time sketching out our idea of a 4th edition liberator. Before I unleash a variety of questions / explanations in regard to our talent picks, here’s the jist of what we came up with:

Talent options (1-4): Air Speaking, Awareness, Conceal Object, Disguise Self, Melee Weapons, Speak Language, Stealthy Stride, Streetwise, Surprise Strike, Unarmed Combat

First Circle:
• Avoid Blow
• First Impression
• Freedom Weaving
• Resist Taunt
• Shackle Shrug

Abilities: Durability (8/6) [see below for comments on abilities]

Second Circle:
• Shield of the Weak

Ability: +1 Social Defense

Third Circle:
• Empathic Sense (Freedom Search)

Ability: Karma on Interaction Tests

Fourth Circle:
• Free Mind

Ability: +1 Physical Defense

Talent options (5-8): Battle Bellow, Dead Fall, Diplomacy, Disarm, False Shackles, Hoard Blows, Inspire Others, Mimic Voice, Temper Flesh, Tiger Spring

Fifth Circle:
• Take the Beating

Ability: Heart of Freedom
Karma: Once per turn on any Action test while imprisoned.

Sixth Circle:
• Lion Heart

Ability: Social Defense +1

Seventh Circle:
• Power Mask

Ability: +1 Initiative

Eight Circle:
• Mind Blade

Ability: +1 Social Defense

A few interesting talents we might try to fit into the options if we somehow get the space for it:
Fireblood
Impress
Leadership
Second Attack

As you can see, a lot of the changes suggested by Panda have been adapted by us. The abilities for instance are mostly copy/paste. As you can see in the First Circle’s ability section, we’ve noted down the 3rd edition durability value for the time being as we have no access to the 4th edition rules yet and would like to withhold further judgement until then. We feel that the extraordinary high value of the Liberator’s durability is well earned, as he frequently gets into very tough situation with very little more than his conviction and natural resilience to guard him. Likewise, we tried to include a few more combat centred options into the mix. After all, a fifth circle 3rd edition Liberator had access to two evasive abilities (Acrobatic Strike/Avoid Blow), two direct combat abilities (Unarmed Combat/Melee Weapon, the latter being a discipline talent), a combat healing ability (Fireblood), two combat stat modifiers (Surprise Strike, Tiger Spring), a ranged combat ability (Throwing Weapons), two usability talents (Dead Fall/Disarm) and at the 5th circle the two powerful talent options of Second Attack and Temper Self. We felt that this plethora of combat abilities in combination with the high durability valuable offered the Liberator the option to be quite value in combat and didn’t want to weaken that aspect all too much. In general, instead of burning down everything and starting from scraps (as suggested with very good arguments by Panda), we instead tried to stick a bit closer to the original liberator, in general preferring to broaden existing talents instead of eliminating them all in all and subsisting them by more useful, but less theme-related talents.


Questions (especially directed at Panda, but if anyone else has an idea, please feel free to patch in):
You decided to grant Streetwise as an ability to the liberator. We were wondering: Is it customary in 4th edition for every discipline to have some kind of ‘freebie’ skill, or did you feel the Streetwise skill was so mandatory to the discipline, yet felt too much like a LP dump for players, that you added it? (I remember the posting explaining why for instance a Weapon smith would in future get a crafting skill for free. I fully agree with the logic there, we just weren’t sure whether that was a general design thing that applied to all disciplines, or only to specific ones). Same question applies to the karma ability of the first circle.
Since Awareness is suggested by you as a first circle talent, we were wondering whether the way Awareness works has been changed going from 3rd to 4th edition. We absolutely agree that Awareness is a very, very handy talent and I tried to make a point about an infiltrator always having to be on edge and very aware of his surroundings, but beyond that is there anything that makes the Awareness talent especially suited to the Liberator?

Talentwise, we were still debating whether Resist Taunt or Surprise Strike should be a first circle talent. While resist taunt is no doubt very useful when infiltrating, surprise strike would further push the combat aspect, without giving the character a combat ability he can always use as a discipline talent (we like the idea of having avoid blow instead melee weapon for all, serving a greater variety of player concepts). I feel, making Surprise Strike a discipline talent would resonate well with the whole 'striking surprisingly out of a position of weakness’ thing.

As for the liberator talents, we decided to overhaul a lot of the existing talents instead of eliminating them all in all. Our design philosophy behind that was that we wanted the liberator to become more useful, but without damaging what made him unique (we’ve not yet worked out the exact details as we, again, do not have access to the 4th edition rules just yet):

Shackle Shrug: As ripping apart restraints is even part of the liberator’s karma ritual, we felt it shouldn’t go lost entirely. Likewise, we felt that while lock picking is much more useful than shackle shrug, we never really imagined the Liberator as someone doing thief’s work regularly (e.g. breaking into houses of wealthy merchants, lock picking their chests to acquire valuables). Clearly, giving liberators lock picking and shackle shrug was meant to enable him to break him and others out of slavery. In that spirit, we got rid of Lock Picking and instead reintroduced Shackle Shrug. To increase the talent’s usefulness, we’d like to suggest the following: instead of only applying to the liberator’s shackles, the talent now can be used to both break the shackles of other namegivers’, as well as destroying other installations aimed at keeping namegivers’ enslaved/oppressed. For instance, you could try to use the talent to break open cell doors. That way, the talent both differentiates itself from that of a Thief, as well as gets broadened in its usefulness (plus, it is cooler, albeit maybe less subtle, to smack prison doors open than picking their locks )

Empathic Sense (Freedom Search): The idea is to have a liberator-specific form of Empathic Sense, linked to the former concept of Freedom Search. It might be used in the broad sense of the general talent, or we might apply some restrictions, making it a mix of a slavery/oppression specific empathic sense, mixed with some item history components (I love to contemplate the meaning of old, dusty, ripped apart shackles)

Free Mind: We had two conflicting ideas concerning revamping that talent: I suggested to broaden its audience by making it a kind of ‘Propagate Freedom’ talent, strengthening the diplomatic aspect of the Liberator. Instead of just rekindling the love for freedom in slaves/oppressed the talent could then be used to, for instance, try and convince local elites of the value of freedom, similar to the ‘change thought’ talent of the Lochost Questor. My GM suggested to, instead of applying Free Mind solely to slaves/oppressed who have given up, realign the talent along the concept of “Free Mind of enslaving thought structures (not necessarily slavery/freedom specific)”. For instance, the talent could potentially then also be used to convince local elites of the harmful effects of established tradition that isn’t being questioned, inspiring a spark of non-conformism in them. The more successes you would get, the more influence you would have on the direction this ‘wind of change’ would take. (Gandalf banishing Saruman out of Theoden comes to mind )

Take the Beating: The idea behind this talent is to offer the Liberator a way of boosting his toughness in situations he doesn’t want to/can’t fight back (e.g. while he is posing as a slave/if he is being tortured). It nicely fits the concept of the Liberator becoming one with the oppressed masses, restraining himself until it is time to strike and serving as a shield for the weak in the meanwhile. We were thinking of having ‘take the beating’ offer additional recovery tests against damage received in situations in which the Liberator wasn’t fighting back. That way, the chances of the Liberator being back on his legs again when the actual fight starts are increased, without giving him a decisive bonus in the combat itself.

I am not quite happy yet regarding False Shackles, Shield of the Weak (the talents themselves just aren’t good enough IMHO – my GM is very fond of SotW though and I respect his authority on this matter) and Shout of Justice. We, too, decided to substitute SoJ through Battle Bellow (we felt Battle Shout + Battle Bellow was a bit too much), making Battle Bellow a talent option (5-8). Since the Shout of Justice is a central text to the liberators and has been a talent as early as circle 3 (and before that is already used as a part of the karma ritual) I feel it might be a better idea to reintroduce the Shout of Justice, broadening its target group (e.g. by including free namegivers who fight slavers alongside the Liberator). Of course one can always roleplay battle shout / battle bellow as a Shout of Justice, I just feel having a more narrow audience but maybe a bit of a higher effect might be more fitting to the theme.

OK, that has been a lot of text – what do you think?

[Mataxes]

[Sangius]

Thanks for clarifying! I'd personally opt for no streetwise and dura 7 then. (what about the 'Karma: Gathering information related to an injustice.' part? Does every discipline get some area of expertise they can karma on?)

[Panda]

There is a lot of text and this is probably going to get long, which also means it is going to wander.

Every discipline gets at least Karma abilities at Third and Fifth Circles (for the first Eight). Support disciplines also get a Karma ability at First Circle to go along with their free talent.

If you want to make your discipline a combat discipline, it will need the talents to support this direction. Durability 7 communicates the discipline is capable of handling their own in the role. To maintain that, I suggest including at least five combat talents in the discipline talent line-up. I could insert a lengthy digression here about the Beastmaster and their problems in 3E, but it is better saved for a different post. You are diverging from my work, which is perfectly fine. However, you will need to go further from what I put together to get a discipline which will stand on its own.

Going over the talents, I see a number which would be better served as Knacks or abilities than as full talents. As we have discussed previously, they are very specific in application and not worth the required investment. I will touch more on Knacks and how I have been approaching them in my home game in a moment. First, some of your questions:

Regarding your question about Awareness, the variation I was working on had a different take than the classic Liberator, which you are hewing more closely towards. For this version, Awareness can work as either a discipline talent or as a talent option, depending on how you want things to go. Is this discipline always aware of their surroundings, who is watching them, etc? If every Liberator is like that, then it should be a discipline talent. If some, even many, but not all, are - talent option is a better place.

Resist Taunt should not be a First Circle talent - it is actually a Journeyman tier talent.

Here are Knacks as I have been employing them at my table for problematic talents:

Shackle Shrug is a talent which will likely work best as a Lock Picking Knack.

Instead of having a different version of Freedom Search, simply make it a Knack for Empathic Sense.

Your version of Free Mind is essentially Emotion Song - which is appropriate. Free Mind can also be emulated through a Conversation Knack which requires the audience to be at least X (e.g. Loyal) to the adept.

Take the Beating as you describe it exists in a strange space. It is also going to make concealing the fact they are a Liberator difficult. It's not a bad concept, though it is rather specific in application. My alternate suggestion: The talent offers Rank (or test result) to Physical Armor for some time. During this time, the adept cannot offer any level of defense and the talent uses illusion magic to make all of the injuries appear worse than they are. A reason for shying away from extra Recovery Tests is the damage pool doesn't track where damage came from (meaning the extra Recovery Tests could be used to heal potentially anything) and requiring to track a separate damage source sounds tedious. This also expands the use of the talent to events outside of Liberating in a slightly more proactive way; it will help you stay alive, rather than help you recover after the fact.

False Shackles would likely work best as a Knack for Disguise Self.

Shield of the Weak is almost interesting, but something which can just as easily be accomplished through very basic roleplay, rather than spending Strain and rolling some dice. The specificity of the slaver is rather limiting. Since your GM wants to keep the ability, I would expand it to anyone who is clearly a victim and their aggressor. My follow-up suggestion is to have it be a Knack for Taunt or Distract.

Shout of Justice is going to get the most mileage through replacement with Battle Bellow. Having your Battle Bellow be a Shout of Justice is perfectly fine. It is important to remember what can be done in a Karma Ritual has no bearing on the character's abilities, since it is an ability in and of itself (see Nethermancer's summoning spirits). Keeping it at Journeyman is best, even if it was available two Circles earlier previously. Talents which are central to a character still wait for the appropriate time, such as Swordmaster and Second Weapon.

Mind Blade - I am not a fan. My suggestion is to turn it into the Journeyman ability, using Freedom Weaving to create it. This is similar to the Archer ability to create ammunition.

Looking at the rest of your talent list, we have (assuming my recommendations stand):

First Circle: Two free discipline talents. One of them should be Melee Weapons. This is a combat character and they need this clearly reflected. Anticipate Blow is a solid choice here for the second spot. It reflects their patience and defensive nature.

Second Circle: Lock Picking

Fourth Circle: Emotion Song

Talent Options: Awareness, Conceal Object, Disguise Self, Stealthy Stride, Surprise Strike, and Unarmed Combat. Melee Weapons was moved to a discipline talent and I pulled Air Speaking, Speak Language and Streetwise. Streetwise isn't really appropriate for this version (also not technically a talent, though it isn't a big deal), and Air Speaking and Speak Language don't fit quite as well either for this particular role. Conversation, Distract, Fireblood, and Tiger Spring are good selections to add here.

Eighth Circle: Make this Second Attack.

Talent Options: Battle Bellow, Dead Fall, Disarm, Hoard Blows, Inspire Others, Mimic Voice, Temper Flesh. I pulled Diplomacy (not so much their thing), and moved Tiger Spring earlier. Blood Share, Resist Taunt, and Spot Armor Flaw are my recommendations for this tier.

This version should be more combat capable, though still won't quite keep up with a core combat discipline. This is okay, because they have a variety of interesting ways to contribute. Here is the (current recommended) talent list based on what you seem to want in full:

Novice Talent Options (1-4): Awareness, Conceal Object, Conversation, Disguise Self, Distract, Fireblood, Stealthy Stride, Surprise Strike, Tiger Spring, and Unarmed Combat

First Circle:
• Anticipate Blow
• Avoid Blow
• First Impression [This may be appropriate to be swapped out with Conversation]
• Freedom Weaving
• Melee Weapons

Second Circle:
• Lock Picking

Third Circle:
• Empathic Sense

Fourth Circle:
• Emotion Song

Journeyman Talent Options (5-8): Battle Bellow, Blood Share, Dead Fall, Disarm, Hoard Blows, Inspire Others, Mimic Voice, Resist Taunt, Spot Armor Flaw, and Temper Flesh.

Fifth Circle:
• Take the Beating

Ability: Mind Blade

Sixth Circle:
• Lion Heart

Seventh Circle:
• Power Mask

Eight Circle:
• Second Attack

[etherial]

[Marceli]

Fasa: will provide guideline for new disciplines ?
It is easy for hp, etc but how estimate new talent power ?

[etherial]

[Sangius]

Thanks, once more, for taking the time to provide just detailed and carefully thought through feedback. One question in regard to talent knacks: providing a player with a talent knack does not ban him/her from using the talent in its original form, or? To give an example: If I would have learned the lock picking talent and the shackle shrug knack to go along with it, I could still try to use the basic talent lock picking to open up chests, right? Or are there knacks that substitute the original talent through the knack description? (As in: You have learned this knack, your understanding of the talent has profoundly shifted and you'll always apply the knack henceforth).

[Panda]

Knacks expand the use of a talent for, usually, additional Strain.

[Roth]