Illusionist Fog of Jeer spell - some questions

[Lys]

And yet, somehow, we get by without rules for putting on our pants, chewing, and breathing. The rules should not be considered all-encompassing. At the end of the day, there will ALWAYS be questions that have to be determined with a "does this make sense?" So, does it make sense to you that what is likely an incredibly common idea for pretty much any Illusionist ever to have existed isn't just kind of taken account in the system? Does it make sense that your Illusionist would be affected by his own illusions?

Right, which is precisely why i said that it's up to the GM whether the Illusionist shouting a warning counts as actively working with those affected by the spell to demonstrate its nature. This is not something the rules specify explicitly, because the rules couldn't possibly cover every single possibly way in which someone could attempt to demonstrate that something is an illusion. To you perhaps it makes sense that it doesn't count, but to me it makes sense that it does count.

It seems blindly obvious to me that if your Illusionist friend tells you something is an illusion, then you believe her. Illusions are her thing so she knows what she's talking about, and that goes double she's telling you she's the one who cast it. So you get +5 to your Sensing Tests as per the rules. The point of a code word is so you can get that warning without also alerting your opponents. You might disagree, and say that merely shouting a warning isn't a enough, that the Illusionist has to actively interact with the illusion to demonstrate its falseness even if she's the one who cast it. That's valid too, but the rules allow for either interpretation.

Basically what i'm saying is that sometimes things make sense both ways, and what makes more sense is going to vary from person to person. So leaving it up to "what makes more sense" isn't going to get you a single answer. Same deal with whether Illusionists are affected by their own illusions, because honestly in some ways in makes more sense to me that they are, and in other ways it makes more sense that they aren't. Personally i'd rather play in games where they are not affected, so i'm inclined to rule accordingly, but it's not wrong to say that they are affected. Once again, it's up to the GM, because the rules don't clearly say one way or the other.

[Slimcreeper]

Personally, I think the code word is a fun idea. I wouldn't suggest it to my players, but if they come up with it ... As for the point about illusionists being immune to their own effects, i would say no - it's more like laying down hallucinogenic poison gas. But the illusionist does get a lot of abilities to defend against illusions.

[Tattered Rags]

Same deal with whether Illusionists are affected by their own illusions, because honestly in some ways in makes more sense to me that they are....

I'm curious as to what those ways are. I can't think of a more definitive way of knowing an illusion is an illusion other than being the one who cast it, and my brain stops there.

[Mataxes]

Just because you know it's an illusion doesn't mean it can't affect you. It's still there, and the magic is designed to mess with your mind. Remember, there's not as much active disbelief of illusions compared to earlier editions, it's mostly sensing tests. I would absolutely grant an Illusionist the +5 bonus to sense illusions for ones they themselves have cast, but that's not the same thing.

As for whether the illusionist can help members of their crew by setting up code words or other signals, I will leave that to individual GMs and how they want to handle it.

[etherial]

According to the spell description the Harried and Aggressive status only apply to actions taken inside the Fog. I suppose if you had someone holding their action that was able to attack at range they would be hitting someone with -2 for being Harried, but that's pretty chancy.

-5 if they started the turn in the Fog.

Same deal with whether Illusionists are affected by their own illusions, because honestly in some ways in makes more sense to me that they are....

I'm curious as to what those ways are. I can't think of a more definitive way of knowing an illusion is an illusion other than being the one who cast it, and my brain stops there.

If you see a Monster with a purple felt cap, it's either an especially snappy dresser or an illusion I created.

[Telarus]

But knowing does not equal understanding, and there is an active magical effect feeding you sensory information. Your character is a (magical/fae-touched) primate hard-wired to react IMMEDIATELY to certain sensory information.

I think of it like this guy's bike experiment, where he demonstrated the difference between "knowing" something and "understanding" it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

He "KNOWS" that the gearing has been reversed, so the way the wheel will turn when the turns the handlebars will be "opposite" the normal, but his body can't immediately adapt to that knowledge. He has to physically train himself to turn that knowledge into "Understanding".

[etherial]

But knowing does not equal understanding, and there is an active magical effect feeding you sensory information. You're character is a (magical/fae-touched) primate hard-wired to react IMMEDIATELY to certain sensory information.

I think of it like this guy's bike experiment, where he demonstrated the difference between "knowing" something and "understanding" it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

He "KNOWS" that the gearing has been reversed, so the way the wheel will turn when the turns the handlebars will be "opposite" the normal, but his body can't immediately adapt to that knowledge. He has to physically train himself to turn that knowledge into "Understanding".

Correct. If you see a monster in a purple felt cap, you will believe it's a monster. But you will also get a +5 to your Sensing Test.

[True Neutral]

I agree that it is an important point that all illusions are constantly reinforcing themselves and are writing themselves directly to the sensory inputs of their targets as absolutely real. The way I see it, only when the 'skill' or circle of the illusion is not able to keep up with the finer skill of reality or when someone uses their conflicting perceptions to convince the target otherwise is a Sensing test possible.

Illusionists do get talents like True Sight and several spells to aid them and others in seeing through illusions, so I think it is also reasonable that they would be affected by their own, which is perhaps why they have so many things to keep this from happening.

One thing that didn't get answered - When does the forced Aggressive Attack option occur? Say a Drednot the warrior declares a Defensive Option to quaff a healing potion at the beginning of the round and rolls an initiative of 11. Oren the Illusionist casts Fog of Jeer with initiative 13, before Drednot acts. Is Drednot's already declared Defensive Option immediately transformed into Aggressive, or does it remain and Drednot only gets Harried until she has her next opportunity to declare her combat option?

[The Undying]

Spell text is unclear, so I'd say it can be whatever the table feels is natural. As long as it is consistently applied. I see two options:

1) combat options are declared at the top of the initiative so it only takes effect the next round and for the entirety of each round it is active. If it gets dispelled midturn, too bad. Nice and clean.

2) they aren't "declared," they're "forced," so it is only active while the spell is up and while people are inside. This gets a bit messy: people can attack inside to get the bonus for an aggressive attack and then move outside to avoid the aggressive attack defense penalty.

Another interesting point of the spell: it effectively damages people a drop at a time. I don't have the spell text on me, so I could be wrong, but I BELIEVE it just says them just use the combat option, not that they must use it for free. It costs Strain to use - again, if I'm not mistaken. So, stay in the fog, trickle Strain

[ChrisDDickey]

It seems blindly obvious to me that if your Illusionist friend tells you something is an illusion, then you believe her. Illusions are her thing so she knows what she's talking about,

One of the things that I always loved about the "Buffy the vampire slayer" TV show, was that when a character was affected by a mind effecting spell, they committed to it. It was never halfway, or winking - They now believed something wholeheartedly. I am especially thinking of the time when Buffy's friends talk to her about her sudden deep love for the vampire Spike. She was willing to consider that somebody might have tried to cast a spell on her, but figured she must have been immune. Because the thought that her love for Spike might not be natural was just not even worth considering.

Many role-players on the other hand refuse to commit to illusions. I have one player whose character once was fooled by a dead fall. He now often stabs apparently dead bodies with swords, not because he is role-playing a character who does not want to be fooled again, but because he as a player refuses to accept that the dead fall talent includes a compulsion to leave the subjects body alone. If he does ever run into another enemy illusionist, he is likely to just poke his sword into the guys waterskin and think he was poking it into his chest. And then when he finds that the illusionist skipped away later, he is going to be very angry again, and tell me that he made really certain they were all dead, and I am once again going to read the part of the talent description where it specifically says that making sure that the bodies were really dead does not work against the dead fall talent. And he will stay mad and insist he made really sure. It's funny how some players just refuse to believe that illusions can affect their characters.