Athens in Earthdawn

[Marzhin]

So I was re-reading some parts of the (excellent) Travar sourcebook, and something struck me. One of the libraries of the Merchant City is Named The Delver’s Athenaeum.

But Athenaeum is not just a synonym for a library (although it is used that way nowadays, of course). Athenaeum was originally the name of a school in Ancient Rome, and it was named after the city of Athens, which back then was regarded as the seat of intellectual refinement.

So for a library in Earthdawn to be called Athenaeum, it means Athens must exist (probably under its Ancient Greek name, Athēnai, or something similar).

It could have been a discrepancy, but after mulling it over I think it's actually not so far-fetched: the first traces of human presence in the Attic peninsula date back to at least the Neolithic era, which would place it right during the Fourth Age if I'm not mistaken. The prehistoric caves under the Acropolis could have been a Kaer, and the Pelasgic wall could be the ruins of the ancient city... And of course, in Earthdawn the whole region is actually part of the Theran province of Vivane.

So there you have it: we can surmise that there is a proto-Athēnai in the Vivane province that is already known as a place of knowledge, to the point libraries are already called Athenaeums

[Geekabilly]

I've always found it odd that the geographical area of ancient Greece doesn't have a counterpart and culture in the Earthdawn setting. Despite the map in the back of Theran Empire, Vivane doesn't occupy the area of Greece. Its much closer geographically to Moesia (The River Danube having an Earthdawn equivalent in the River Danaba). Just south of Vivane is the province of Rugaria, which is geographically Thracia in our ancient world. The southern boundary of Rugaria isn't mapped out, so I guess it could extend to all of Greece, but like so much outside of Barsaive its not very well detailed.

[Bonhumm]

Vivane doesn't occupy the area of Greece.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The CITY of Vivane is indeed far away from Attica but the PROVINCE itself does include the entire modern Greece.

I was unable, however, to find any information concerning 'the rest' of the province in either the Thera or Vivanne book but I only looked quickly.

Athen/Sparta etc. could or could not be there yet. It is basically around 8000 BC so the entire WORLD population should be betweeen 5 to 10 millions people which is certainly not much.

[Geekabilly]

Vivane doesn't occupy the area of Greece.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The CITY of Vivane is indeed far away from Attica but the PROVINCE itself does include the entire modern Greece.

I was unable, however, to find any information concerning 'the rest' of the province in either the Thera or Vivanne book but I only looked quickly.

Athen/Sparta etc. could or could not be there yet. It is basically around 8000 BC so the entire WORLD population should be betweeen 5 to 10 millions people which is certainly not much.

Are you going off the map from Theran Empire? Because the big fold out map that comes with Sky Point and Vivane clearly marks out the boundary of Vivane Province as north of Rugaria - it is itself quite a small landmass situated in the basin of the Danaba River. Rugaria itself isn't even marked on the Theran Empire map but it is south of Vivane Province, therefore Vivane can't really cover the rest of Attic peninsula, but it is possible that Rugaria might. Vivane Province is situated almost exactly were Moesia was - north and east of Thracia.

[Bonhumm]

I did refer to the Theran map indeed.

I now realize I actually had completely dismissed the Vivane and Skypoint books. Back when it went out I never gave out much attention because I was still busy learning everything Barsaive and never planned to go there and, once I got interested with the Empire, I just went for the Theran book. Therefore, checking the books now I realize that I (probably) never read them nor seen that map! So whatever I'm saying here might be contradicted by the books but here it is:

The map, indeed, does show a 'Vivane Province' a lot smaller than the Theran map. I can see several possibilities for that:

- The (vivane) map is just incomplete, period. This could be due to the fact that this area is (or is considered) wild and mostly uninhibited/of no interest for mapmakers (i.e. old Russians maps dint show much details about Alaska)

- The (theran) map is incorrect, an error during production. We could role-play it as an exaggeration from Theran officials when they 'shared' the map of their Empire to the Barsaive's delegation. After all the map IS rather weird as it's missing half of Spain/Catalonia.

- The Vivane province expended between the release of the Vivane Book and the Theran Book. It is of course possible as Thera is...well... an Empire.

[Marzhin]

Are you going off the map from Theran Empire? Because the big fold out map that comes with Sky Point and Vivane clearly marks out the boundary of Vivane Province as north of Rugaria - it is itself quite a small landmass situated in the basin of the Danaba River. Rugaria itself isn't even marked on the Theran Empire map but it is south of Vivane Province, therefore Vivane can't really cover the rest of Attic peninsula, but it is possible that Rugaria might. Vivane Province is situated almost exactly were Moesia was - north and east of Thracia.

Browsing rapidly through the Theran Empire sourcebook, I'm beginning to believe what was indicated as "Vivane" on its map is actually supposed to be Rugaria. For instance it describes the city of Okonopolis, which "lies on a peninsula where the Selestrean Sea meets Death's Sea, southeast of the Theran province of Rugaria." If you look at the Theran Empire map, that's clearly in the blue area called "Vivane", so that's probably a mistake on the map. The actual province of Vivane is indeed the small area between Rugaria and Barsaive (and since the fall of Sky Point, it probably doesn't exist anymore anyway).
In any case, we can all agree that if it exists in Earthdawn Athens/Athēnai would be part of the Theran Empire

[Geekabilly]

I did refer to the Theran map indeed.

I now realize I actually had completely dismissed the Vivane and Skypoint books. Back when it went out I never gave out much attention because I was still busy learning everything Barsaive and never planned to go there and, once I got interested with the Empire, I just went for the Theran book. Therefore, checking the books now I realize that I (probably) never read them nor seen that map! So whatever I'm saying here might be contradicted by the books but here it is:

The map, indeed, does show a 'Vivane Province' a lot smaller than the Theran map. I can see several possibilities for that:

- The (vivane) map is just incomplete, period. This could be due to the fact that this area is (or is considered) wild and mostly uninhibited/of no interest for mapmakers (i.e. old Russians maps dint show much details about Alaska)

- The (theran) map is incorrect, an error during production. We could role-play it as an exaggeration from Theran officials when they 'shared' the map of their Empire to the Barsaive's delegation. After all the map IS rather weird as it's missing half of Spain/Catalonia.

- The Vivane province expended between the release of the Vivane Book and the Theran Book. It is of course possible as Thera is...well... an Empire.

The map is indeed quite strange. Reading more about Vivane it turns out that it isn't really a province - at least not in the same way that say Marac or Vasgothia is a province. The Therans took to calling the lands around Vivane City Vivane Province after the 1st Theran War with Barsaive. There's a bit of Naming magic going on there too to help solidify Theran control of that land. There's clearly an inconsistency when comparing Theran Empire and Sky Point & Vivane and not just with this issue. Vivane Book One provides a brief overview of some of the Theran Provinces and these details are actually missing from Theran Empire despite it supposedly expanding upon the material in Sky Point & Vivane. It's a shame Rugaria wasn't given its own chapter in Theran Empire really.

[Geekabilly]

Are you going off the map from Theran Empire? Because the big fold out map that comes with Sky Point and Vivane clearly marks out the boundary of Vivane Province as north of Rugaria - it is itself quite a small landmass situated in the basin of the Danaba River. Rugaria itself isn't even marked on the Theran Empire map but it is south of Vivane Province, therefore Vivane can't really cover the rest of Attic peninsula, but it is possible that Rugaria might. Vivane Province is situated almost exactly were Moesia was - north and east of Thracia.

Browsing rapidly through the Theran Empire sourcebook, I'm beginning to believe what was indicated as "Vivane" on its map is actually supposed to be Rugaria. For instance it describes the city of Okonopolis, which "lies on a peninsula where the Selestrean Sea meets Death's Sea, southeast of the Theran province of Rugaria." If you look at the Theran Empire map, that's clearly in the blue area called "Vivane", so that's probably a mistake on the map. The actual province of Vivane is indeed the small area between Rugaria and Barsaive (and since the fall of Sky Point, it probably doesn't exist anymore anyway).
In any case, we can all agree that if it exists in Earthdawn Athens/Athēnai would be part of the Theran Empire

I agree with you on all accounts.

[Lys]

Vivane Province is, or rather was, the part of Barsaive still under Theran control. That the Therans Named it such was not just an effort to strengthen their hold on it, but also a tacit admission that the rest of Barsaive was lost to them and they weren't getting it back. It's a change in strategic posture from offensive to defensive, with the hope being that by breaking the pattern of the area around Vivane and Sky Point away from the rest of Barsaive they would not lose it as well. Of course after the events of the Second Theran War it all proved for nought.

As for the colour map in the Theran Empire book, one really should not put a lot of weight on it. It's clearly full of errors contradicting the material presented both in the book and elsewhere. Most egregiously, it shows Creana as being next to the Earthdawn equivalent of the Nile, rather than along it as clearly depicted in the Creana chapter, and indeed as common sense would expect. What's more the map isn't even presented as being in-character, so no further explanation is needed to explain its mistakes than the artist not being very familiar with the setting.

Also with respect to Athens in Earthdawn, one should remember that while a lot of material in Earthdawn's books are presented as being in-character, these are clearly translations for the benefit of the modern audience. Barsaivians obviously neither speak English nor write with the Latin Alphabet. Consequently the most parsimonious explanation for why a library in Travar is referred to as an Athenaeum is that its actual name uses a word that references a different place of learning - likely either Throal or Thera - which was translated to Athenaeum for the benefit for the English speaking reader.

[Marzhin]

Also with respect to Athens in Earthdawn, one should remember that while a lot of material in Earthdawn's books are presented as being in-character, these are clearly translations for the benefit of the modern audience. Barsaivians obviously neither speak English nor write with the Latin Alphabet. Consequently the most parsimonious explanation for why a library in Travar is referred to as an Athenaeum is that its actual name uses a word that references a different place of learning - likely either Throal or Thera - which was translated to Athenaeum for the benefit for the English speaking reader.

Maybe, although I believe that in a setting where Names hold so much power, writers need to be careful.