Spell Acquisition

[The Undying]

I give up. Oh great and power off-topic gods, take this sacrifice!!

I've been thinking back to the comments Panda made when I asked him about Spliced Weave. The general impression I'm kind of left with is that there's an expectation that magician spell purchasing lags their Circle advancement.

Ok, this is all just my opinion, but it is based on experience with the world since 1e.

"This is not a bug, it's a feature." This mirrors the different advancement rates in AD&D/old-school D&D, and serves to balance the caster's versatility moment-to-moment to the other classes. At least this was the general impression given since 1e. Magicians spent LP on more things than the other "focused" Disciplines, but hey, at least you're not chewing through your Toughness Steps to make enchantments permanent, eh? (Enchanting in the old-school games costs a point of Constitution to cast "Permanence" I much prefer Blood Magic Damage....)

For me, the idea of LP spell cost is completely at odds with the idea of caster versatility. The design decision, as I've seen it explained, is that it requires players to weigh the pros and cons of individual spells and means that individual magicians won't be able to pull off everything their Discipline can do over all spells. That's fine, but that ultimately means that magicians are generally NOT versatile - they are essentially buying an extremely expensive knack at each Circle, without which their Talent is actually useless. Again, going back to the premise of this thread, unless we assume that player spell acquisition lags advancement as a general rule, which would allow them to buy more spells (versatility) without being unduly slowed in advancement (which I'd still love to hear people with experience on the topic weigh in on).

Like so many things, as players advance, they accumulate LP faster, making lower-Rank items effectively "cheap." Meanwhile, the cost of buying at-Rank stuff ("Spells"? -Tel) is kind of prohibitively expensive in that it makes a fairly large impact in LP which could otherwise be spent towards advancement.

Only for completionist "gotta catch them all" types. The other spellcasters realize they are unique in that they can advance their power vertically (improve talent ranks, attempt initiation into the next Circle), _or_ grow their base of influence wider (acquire more spells). Past circle 5 things get WEIRD anyway, what with Spirits and all. Any Journeyman Elementalist or Nethermancer worth their salt is going to have at least one contingency contract setup with their favorite sentient blob of astral space to come to their aid if shit really goes down. How do we measure how much LP that is worth?

I don't think this is exclusive to a "gotta catch them all" type. Again, going back to the premise, if magicians only by "cheap" spells so they aren't overly diminishing their rate of advancement, that does not mean they are going to buy every single one. They can still buy a single "cheap" spells.

Summoning also got a significant kick in the pants with ED4. Half an hour summoning action for what is likely a one hour effect means you have to know things are about to go down or otherwise going into a situation where you could use them; otherwise, the ability is useless because it won't be there when you need them. I'm not really sure what you mean by the "contingency contract" either: spirits generally don't like being summoned, repeated summons have higher difficulty, Named spirits are generally very powerful (and not really accessible until maybe Master tier Adepts), and unless I've missed it in RAW, you've grafted on some additional system to allow a "contingency summon" on short order. Really, quick access to power via summoning seems to have been relegated to bound spirits (with the related Knacks to come in the Companion), which is well and good as long as the players are okay with imprisoning spirits generally against their will.

From this perspective, lets assume that magicians are more likely to pick up spells say three Circles below their actual Circle. Lets also assume that a magician has 7 Perception and Threadweaving Rank equal to their Circle. Given that, if a Circle 4 magician is picking up Circle 1 spells, and these spells are effectively their primary Spellcasting repertoire, then they should be pulling off two Threadweaving test successes per turn (Threadweaving Step 11 [ 7 + 4 ] versus Weaving Difficult 5 [ 4 + 1 ]).

This is a fair analysis. But again, I'd want to stress the idea that simply knowing a _single_ spell of your current circle (and having the talent ranks required to matrix cast it) is what makes you a spellcasting adept of that circle. There is an up-front cost - you have dedicated 4 of your starting talents, and maybe a few more later, to your main "trick". This being "see where it says 'Spell Matrix' on my character sheet? I can make that into any of these other 'effect powers' at will." Even Shadowrun deckers would be jealous of that kind of hot-swap-able plug-and-play shtick.

I have to disagree with the statement about knowing a spell at Circle is what makes an Adept a member of that Circle. RAW Journeyman (maybe Novice, don't have rules on me) say that an Adept must demonstrate a spell of the new Circle. Demonstration only requires access to the spell, which can be done via someone else's grimoire (or a written spell), it does not require casting it from a matrix or "knowing" it. Requiring that a magician purchase a spell at the new Circle to advance is really just unfair to a player: it guarantees that they will advance more slowly than their companions, robs them of their choice on how to use their character, and could actually force them to get a spell they simply don't want. Furthermore, Panda (and maybe Mataxe) have made statements says they expressly wanted to make Talents more important to magicians, so in that mindset, I think that like all other Disciplines simply providing at-Circle mastery of Discipline Talents is sufficient.

This post is really just meant to pull together two ideas. First, I'm curious if other people see this trend at their tables, especially if players aren't granted a free spell at advancement. Second, since I talk a lot about the Threadweaving tax, I'm curious if people thing that 2 successes per turn is "good enough" if this is the likely pattern of spell use.

I agree that the tutor initiating the student into the next circle should offer to teach them a spell of that circle which they know. I won't drop the LP costs in my game, but this related to how the metaphysics of magic, spells, and patterns are presented in the world. (I fully realize that those only exposed to the 4E material lack the context of the earlier books and novels).

Here's my summary: The act of inscribing a new spell of your discipline into your grimoire (a personal pattern item) causes a change in _your_ pattern, weaving the pattern of the spell into your own. To make this pattern-magic change permanent requires expending Legend Points. Once this is done, the spell pattern is locked into your own (and this is the reason you can use your body as a RAW magic filter). At this point, you do _not_ need to reference your grimoire in order to cast the spell or to swap it into a spell matrix (weaving a copy of the one you know so well because it is a part of you). Having the grimoire on hand may make it easier if you're a Wizard (this has been greatly highlighted in 4E), but you strictly don't need it to cast once you've spent the LP to lock the spell pattern into yours.

It sounds like you're kind of mixing things up. In ED4, spells can no longer exist in an Adept's grimoire unless they are known. The act of tanscribing the spell into the grimoire is the final step in learning a spell, and learning a spell requires LP in the current system. Right now, RAW, there's no way for a magician to slow-cast spells they don't "know" unless they have someone else's grimoire. This is why I'd pitched the idea of a "grimoire but not a grimoire" item in a different thread - restore the ability of Adepts to have slow-cast access to spells they don't "know," especially since many spells never really need to be "known" (spells like Thrive never really benefit from being "known" - they'll never be cast in combat, they'll only be placed into a matrix for the moment they're need and then immediately swapped out, it really only comes into play rarely, etc, etc).

[Dale]

I've played an elementalist to 7 and have run games with casters. I do see where the casters lag behind the non-casters through progression. I don't think I've ever seen a caster not buy current circle spells though due to it. The new effects are too much a temptation to avoid. There are many circles where a specific new spell was much more exciting and useful than the talent for that circle.

That being said, around circle 5 where things start to noticeably slow I did find myself and players going back to raise lesser used talents and filling in additional spells because they were so cheap. In the case of my elementalist there were many spells that weren't overly useful from a game perspective but seemed absolutely amazing from a quality of life perspective that my character would absolutely want.

[The Undying]

Yeah, I can see how Journeyman has a tendency to slow things down. Players tend to have accumulated some interesting Thread Items, and the cost of their lower Ranks don't see crazy expensive anymore. The increased cost of the Journeyman Discipline Talent is also a bit daunting at the top end required for advancement, making Rank increased in lesser-improved Talents feel more fulfilling.

[Loba]

Just as a final note:

I've seen it all over the board. Spellcasters are definitely behind on their advancement over others. Further, often you find the spell two circles ABOVE you. Its the one you need and want. You can cast it through the found grimoire. Often, a character would rather learn it. OK. Great. That cost a ton and now you are always a Circle behind everyone else... <shrug>

While it may seem like a bad thing - I have never seen anyone upset by this nor been upset by it myself. Perhaps the group I play with is just more mature and enjoys the disparity.

Either way, it DEFINITELY happens - and does slow down the Magician.

[The Undying]

Either way, it DEFINITELY happens - and does slow down the Magician.

Right. That's why I really didn't want the conversation to veer this way: it is what it is.

1) A player that wants the best they can get at their Circle will spend the LP and they'll fall behind; people experienced with ED will see this coming, new players to the system might get upset. BUT, it's okay, yeah, you're behind in a Circle, BUT you're getting the same LP award as your companions - if you were getting Circle 6 LP while they were getting Circle 7 LP, then that would SUUUUUCK.

2) Players that don't want to fall behind will find ways to not fall behind, like buying "cheap" spells. "Cheap" spells have a theoretical benefit in that you can Threadweaving into that more easily because of the difference between your Threadweaving Step and the Weaving Difficulty.

THIS LAST THING is really what I wanted to explore in this thread - if players are buying "cheap" spells, and as a result are capable of getting 2 successes per Threadweaving more than 50% of the time, does that help (or maybe fully) negate the sadness that is the whole "you lose a turn Threadweaving" problem. The first problem - that has been debated up and down, back and forth, to the moon and back, etc, etc, etc.

[Dyrmagnos]

Lets analyse this - adept at 4-th circle with step 8 perception (7 base + 1 from circles - sorry but perception is only one worth maxing) and threadwaving at 4 would have 12 step. Adding karma (normal in combat) would rise it to 16 = 2 additional threads for circles 1+2 spells. Generally it allows to cast spell with 1 base thread + 1 bonus in 2 rounds. Most of the spells from this circles are 0 thread spells so we get no additional bonus from 2-nd success except of higher chance of waving this threads.

From circle 5 we get an ability to add 2 threads to single spell so with step 17 vs 7 we get 3 successes on circle 3 spell with 50% chance. Faill = we effectively loosing this round.

Enchanted matrix probably we will use to make single thread spells instants.

Finally at circle 4 we get almost nothing from extra success.
For circle 5-8 there are some spells worth of weaving extra threads for them but globally chance of loosing additional round to finish failed threadwaving from last round would terrify most casters (3 rounds for single spell is really not worth) so much that they pref to wave 1 thread less with huge chance of success.

[The Undying]

Lets analyse this - adept at 4-th circle with step 8 perception (7 base + 1 from circles - sorry but perception is only one worth maxing) and threadwaving at 4 would have 12 step. Adding karma (normal in combat) would rise it to 16 = 2 additional threads for circles 1+2 spells. Generally it allows to cast spell with 1 base thread + 1 bonus in 2 rounds. Most of the spells from this circles are 0 thread spells so we get no additional bonus from 2-nd success except of higher chance of waving this threads.

A few problems here. First, PER 8 at Circle 4 is a pretty big stretch. I think it's best to stick at 7, it's more realistic.

Next, whether there are combat-relevant Thread 1 spells at Circle 1 & 2 is entirely dependent on the Discipline. There are a number of good spells at Circle 2 that are Thread 1 for everyone, while at Circle 1, really only for Nethermancer & Wizard (IIRC). All of these would require a turn to weave anyways, so they could easily benefit from the extra thread allowed at Novice tier.

From circle 5 we get an ability to add 2 threads to single spell so with step 17 vs 7 we get 3 successes on circle 3 spell with 50% chance. Faill = we effectively loosing this round.

Why jump to Circle 3 at Circle 5? My premise was based on 3 Circle lag, which means we're really looking at Circle 2 once we hit Circle 5.

Regardless, if we use your numbers - okay, we've established that going for three successes on a Threadweaving test is bad, which again, goes back to my premise that we've got relatively good odds of getting 2 successes.

Enchanted matrix probably we will use to make single thread spells instants.

That's one way to use them. Lots of good ways to use them. Using these to remove the Threadweaving test isn't really what we're discussing though.

Finally at circle 4 we get almost nothing from extra success.

Not true. We have a good change of casting Circle 1 spells with 2 threads in one turn. This really only matters for Illusionist & Wizard, who have valuable Thread 1 spells at Circle 1, but it's entirely relevant.

For circle 5-8 there are some spells worth of weaving extra threads for them but globally chance of loosing additional round to finish failed threadwaving from last round would terrify most casters (3 rounds for single spell is really not worth) so much that they pref to wave 1 thread less with huge chance of success.

Not super sure what you're aiming for here. That aiming for 3 successes in a Threadweaving test is bad? Yes, that's why the premise is "3 Circle lag, good chance at 2 successes Threadweaving." However, there are lots of great uses for 2 successes on Threadweaving at this point: 0 Thread w/ 2 extra threads, 1 Thread w/ 1 extra, 1 Thread in Enhanced Matrix w/ 2 extra, 2 Thread w/ 0 extra, 2 Thread in Enhanced Matrix w/ 1 extra.

So, this analysis really hasn't led us anywhere. It's just brought us back to my opening premise. The question being asked is "do people feel this is good enough to offset the lost turn to Threadweaving"? This isn't a numbers thing.

[Dyrmagnos]

In most situations its not worth - maybe spells that have additional targets included as extra thread option. In combat caster should use 0 thread or enchanted matrix to cast 1 thread spells.

Im playing now elementalist and when looking on spell list as 5-th circle caster:
1-st circle:
air armor - additional + rank targets is ok but hard to use in combat because of touch range - score 2/5
earth darts - additional target x1 and -2 armor if you are using desperate spell amulet for longer effect = 2x nice dmg + -4 armor debuff 4/5
flame weapon - 2x dmg + additional target from elementalist ability, still hard to use because of our low initiative and touch range = 2x +8 dmg in meele 3/5
resist element - very situational

2-nd circle:
shield willow - nice bonus +3 (1 thread) physical and mystic defense for 2 targets (ability) again touch effect in 2-nd round of combat... 3/5
slow weapon - additional target + effect - we reduce dmg of 2 characters by 6 or 3 targets by 4, quite nice 4/5

And there are spells of elementalist that i think are worth of casting for 2 rounds - half of them are buffs that are usable because of discipline ability to grant additional target but still you have to cast them in second round of combat probably after all fighters. Earth darts are quite nice and i think worth of spending 2 rounds on casting especially with blood charm. Generally threadwaving + desperate spell (spellcasting) is a good idea.

[The Undying]

I really don't want to veer off topic again talking about spell valuation or what are good uses of extra threads. But got it, you don't think two threads is enough

[Dyrmagnos]

I dont get about what do you want to discuss in this thread - most of the spells to which you have to wave are not worth of casting in combat.
2-3 or even 4 threads dont change here anything because there are very few effects that after 2 rounds of casting you can use (you are as caster the slowest member in team) - normal combats last for 3-4 rounds so you can cast 1-2 spells. Better to cast 3-4 without threads and you can decide in every round what is the most needed for a team in this moment.

We need mechanism to use this additional successes (generally not worth this bonus round) for free spellcasting or store them by Hold Thread to use them in next rounds.
With this possibilities casting lower circles spells become a choice, I want to wave threads to weaker spell with high chance to cast it in this round or cast my circle spell (and sacrifice a lot of silver + LP) and wait 1 round for this game changing effect.

Generally i very respect work that you are putting into making this game better but some in game mechanics are not the best and can be changed a little bit.
Its like troubadour ability to inspire other with 11 or 13-th circle ability - with average roll (group pattern item +5 and karma for it) you can boost rolls of your entire team by +12 / +16 at 15-th circle its even more. I know that is legendary character but when you with 1 skill double rolls for your team its little game breaking.