What is the definition of a "Target Group" and what determines who is and is not in it?

[ChrisDDickey]

Target Group is a term that is used a lot in the book, but we can't find a definition for it.
Our table recently broke out into a spirited debate about Battle Bellow.

The targets must be within the adept’s Battle Bellow rank x10 yards. The adept makes a Battle Bellow test against the highest Social Defense among the target group, +1 for each additional target.

There are three strongly held opinions.

• This opinion holds that the "Target Group" is and must be all people within range. The specified Range is also specifying an Area of Effect. The talent must affect all creatures within Rank x 10 yards, friend, foe and neutral. The adept can't exclude anybody within that area of effect. The Target number gets increased for each person beyond the first in Rank x 10 yards. Several people vigorously support this interpretation.
• This opinion holds that "Target Group" means all members of whatever distinct groups the Adept wishes to include. So if the Adept is facing enemies before and behind, he chooses one group to Bellow at (ether the enemies before, the enemies behind, or his own allies (including those not making close combat attacks and thus not able to benefit from the buff). Use the highest SD from the group chosen and apply +1 per additional member of the group. All members of the selected group must be targeted. IE if he chooses to target the enemies in front of him, then all enemies in front of him are the "Target Group" and must be targeted.
• The third option holds that Adept gets to choose whom is or is not targeted. He might choose to target himself, one ally, and one person each from the groups before and behind. The "Target Group" is whomever the Adept chooses to target and he is free to add or exclude whomsoever is within range as he sees fit to the Target Group.

Like I said, vigorous debate.
So for this and all other cases where the term "Target Group" is used, what determines what is the Target Group?

Feel free to ignore the "Suffocation" spell, which has a listed Area of Effect and says " the target group in the area of effect". I presume the spell targets everybody in the AoE regardless of Adept intent. So this question is mostly concerned about Target Group in the absence of an explicit AoE that affects everybody inside it.

[RazanMG]

In case of Battle Bellow, Target Group means Adept can choose who is he yelling at, friends or enemies, and can choose how many to affect, 1 or more.
He cannot target himself ("...inspiring his allies and intimidating his enemies.")

As I remember all talents that can target multiple creatures (creatures include Namegivers) lets adept choose how many are affected.


In case of AoE spells Target Group means all in area of effect (unless you can exclude them).

[ChrisDDickey]

As I remember all talents that can target multiple creatures (creatures include Namegivers) lets adept choose how many are affected.

I seem to remember this as well, and it seems like common sense to me, but others disagree, and for the life of me I can't find it anywhere in the rules. Does anybody know where I can find it?

[Mataxes]

The general rules are as follows:

Area of Effect talents/spells (e.g. Fireball) affect every valid target in the area of effect. Exempting targets generally requires some kind of special exemption provided in the description.

If an ability has some kind of hard limit on the number of targets (e.g. Lightning Bolt, which is limited based on the number of successes), then the user gets to decide which targets. (Other abilities might be limited by talent rank or the like.)

===

To address Battle Bellow specifically, it reads to me like more of an AoE effect -- there's no hard limit to the number of potential targets. (Realistically, there is, simply based on how many people can be in the potential area, and the practicality of beating the DN that might result. But that limit isn't imposed by the talent itself.)

The intent is that it affects all targets in range as an AoE. This is simpler to track -- allies in the area get the bonus, enemies the penalty.

I can, however, understand the interpretation of being able to select targets, since there's nothing specific to indicate the talent affects all targets in the affected area. If, at your table, you want to be selective about targets, go for it. It's slightly more work to track, since it's no longer a blanket effect, but if the group is okay with it, that's fine. Just be consistent.

(Going that route makes the talent slightly more powerful/useful because the adept can be selective about targets in order to maximize potential for success and effect. But I don't think it's game breaking.)

[etherial]

To address Battle Bellow specifically, it reads to me like more of an AoE effect -- there's no hard limit to the number of potential targets. (Realistically, there is, simply based on how many people can be in the potential area, and the practicality of beating the DN that might result. But that limit isn't imposed by the talent itself.)

The intent is that it affects all targets in range as an AoE. This is simpler to track -- allies in the area get the bonus, enemies the penalty.

The problem with the AoE interpretation is that the mechanics crap out on it. Let's assume you're a Troll Sky Raider with average Charisma. You've just hit Sixth Circle, so you have Step 11 Battle Bellow. You've got four allies in your party and five enemies you're fighting. If you spend Karma, you're rolling Step ~15 against 8 plus the highest Social Defense in the room. Which means if anyone has above-average Charisma and is in a Social Defense primary Discipline, your Battle Bellow will cause you to spend a Strain for no effect consistently. And that's after you've sunk 5200 Legend into it.

The mechanics aren't balanced for an AoE, they're balanced for a selective-targeting power. It just doesn't include instructions for selective targeting.

[Mataxes]

Which, you know, is a perfectly valid reason for running it a different way.

[ChrisDDickey]

The problem with the AoE interpretation is that the mechanics crap out on it. Let's assume you're a Troll Sky Raider with average Charisma...

The situation is even worse than that. The "buff" effect for battle bellow is that your allies get a plus to their close combat attacks. As a Sky Raider, you are one of the melee fighters. The group probably only has one or two melee fighters other than you, so the buff benefit is not actually helping most of your allies, who nevertheless add to the target number.

If (as RazanMG points out) Battle Bellow might not affect you (like you would want it to since you are a melee fighter), but it does need to target all of your allies (some of whom are doing ranged or spell combat, not close combat), you are adding plus one for each of your allies to the target number in order to affect only one or two of your allies.

As etherial points out, if you have a Troubadour in your own party, Doing a battle bellow becomes much, much harder, probably reducing Battle Bellow effectiveness by at least one success every attempt, to absolutely no benefit.

[yankeeschic]

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[yankeeschic]

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