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How does astral sensing function in regard to astral forms (e.g., unmanifested spirits, astral Horrors)? The text of the ED4 Player’s Guide is fairly explicit about perceiving the astral imprints of physical forms but not nearly as clear on what astral sensing reveals of astral natives. Here are the key questions as I see them:

1. A character directly perceiving astral space sees the astral imprint of all physical things and “astral creatures...and any other astral patterns” (p.205). Does this mean the character sees native astral forms in fully resolved detail, similar to the way he’d see a physical object with normal vision?
2. Does the same answer apply if the character is using an astral sensing ability (e.g., Astral Sight)?
3. If an initial view of the astral imprints of physical things reveals an impression of the strength and location of said things’ patterns, what information does the astral sensing of an astral form reveal about that form’s pattern? Can the pattern of an astral form be studied in the same manner as the pattern of the astral imprint of a physical form?
4. In the case of dual-natured Horrors, what would astral sensing perceive if the astral form of an observed Horror was not in range of the sensing ability? Does a dual-natured Horror have both an astral imprint of its physical form and an astral form present in astral space simultaneously? Or does the astral form somehow take the place of an astral imprint, in which case the perceiving character would see...nothing?

I’m fairly sure I know where I land on these questions, but I’m curious to know what the official metaphysical interpretation should be. Insights anyone?

Hello

As far as I know, there is no clear and definite answer to those questions but based on a paragraph I will copy at the end of the post, here's my opinion on the subject:

Question 1: Things/persons/creatures that are PHYSICALLY in Astral Space appears 'fully defined' and their True Patterns are not visible and, therefore, cannot be analyzed.

Questions 2: Yes. Being physically present in Astral Space or not would not affect what you see, only others would see you.

Question 3: Astral Sight and 'Astral Sensing' would not really show anything different to the viewer. Two more details tho:
- Just 'observing' an Astral Imprint only shows the 'form' of the object and, through the presence or not of a 'glow' inside the imprint, will reveal if the 'thing' is magical (glowing but only in a section of the thing), alive (glowing filling the entire imprint) or mundane (empty). There is no clear rules on whether the 'intensity' of the glow can be used to gauge the 'strength' of the Pattern or not (there's been a lot of arguments/discussions about this in the past and it is, basically up to the GM).
- Other than the (possible) 'intensity of the glow', nothing else (than what I wrote above) can be gathered from just a casual observation of an imprint/pattern. The observer would need to have beat the MD of the thing being observed to actually see the details of the Pattern and begin studying it in details. Again, there is no clear rules of what Talent might be used to study a person's Pattern (Item History perhaps?), how long it would take nor how detailed the information gathered would be.
- 'Astral Sensing' is not well defined and is pretty much 'not a thing' in Earthdawn; as far as I can tell, it seems to be a 'remnant' from the time that Earthdawn and Shadowrun were sharing the same universe and was an attempt to have the equivalent of 'Astral Projection' in Earthdawn.

Question 4: Dual Natured Horrors are defined as (sometimes) being able to act 'individually' (i.e. the Imprint and Physical forms can be in different places at the same time, performing different actions. Again, I don't think there is rules concerning what happens when they 'join up'. I guess the 2 possibilities would be:
1- Just like a Namegiver getting physically in Astral Space; its physical form and imprint would merge together; only showing the physical form to an observer.
2- The two forms would coexist 'close' to one another in some kind of way.


Source of my reasoning (emphasis mine):

To enter astral space, an adept must transform from a physical being into an astral being. Most often, adepts accomplish this transformation by using the Spirit Portal spell or Astral Portal spirit power, but certain legendary artifacts are said to create similar effects. During the transformation, an adept actually refocuses his pattern, removing his body from the physical world and converting it to astral energy. Then he joins this astral energy with his astral imprint to create an astral form for himself. The adept's life essence provides his astral form with definition, and because the adept's mind and consciousness enter the astral form during the transformation as well, the adept can control the form as he would control his physical body. Like astral imprints, an astral form resembles its subject's true nature. Only the most powerful disguises or illusions can alter the appearance of an adept's true form. Radical alterations to an adept's pattern will produce a blurred, double-image astral form, but other characters will be able to discern the two images in the form. Note that an adept's astral form is NOT the same as his true pattern. A true pattern represents its subject, while the astral form IS the subject-when in astral form, the subject is alive, "solid" and can interact with other astral forms. Name-givers may also transport inanimate objects or matter into astral space. In such cases, the object or matter ceases to exist in the physical world and takes on an astral form. Any astral being can pick up the astral form by making a conscious effort and may then carry the item with no further thought.

Appreciate the input, Bonhumm. It appears you're referencing M:AMoMS, though. I'm specifically interested in the 4E position on this because some of the language has been tweaked and clarified over the editions. That doesn't necessarily invalidate your responses, but I think we're talking past each other on some of the points.

To clarify, when I use the term "Astral Sensing," I'm using it as 4E defines it. It is not direct perception of astral space via astral travel or projection (e.g., Netherwalk) but exactly the opposite: it is an apprehension of astral space through magical abilities that allow interaction with and study of astral space without the risks involved with direct perception. Astral Sight and Thread Weaving are the most relevant adept talents (but all talents provide some fundamental astral sensing in that they allow the manipulation of the magical energy in astral space). The "Thread Sight" enabled by Thread Weaving can only be used for viewing patterns for the purpose of weaving threads to them. Astral Sight is the astral sensing method used in pretty much all other applications.

Bonhumm wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:18 pm

Question 3: Astral Sight and 'Astral Sensing' would not really show anything different to the viewer.

As defined in 4E, Astral Sight is a method of astral sensing.

Bonhumm wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:18 pm

There is no clear rules on whether the 'intensity' of the glow can be used to gauge the 'strength' of the Pattern or not...

While details/explicit mechanics are left in the hands of the GM, p.208 of the 4E PG does state that "[t]he more magic a person uses, the more complex his pattern, and the more significant his astral imprint will be."

Bonhumm wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:18 pm

Again, there is no clear rules of what Talent might be used to study a person's Pattern...

The scope and precise mechanics are again undefined, but pp.210-211 of the 4E PG discuss the study of patterns with astral sensing. Since Astral Sight is the only talent that allows for astral sensing beyond one specific application, it would be the talent adepts would use for examining patterns.

Bonhumm wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:18 pm

2- The two forms would coexist 'close' to one another in some kind of way.

I'd assume this is the case, but I'm actually more interested in what happens when the astral and physical forms are spatially separated. Would the physical form still have an astral imprint? If so, when the physical and astral forms occupy the same space, is the astral imprint of the physical form still visible through the astral form?

For additional thoughts on astral sensing, I recommend these two very old threads. Just scroll down past the error messages to the text of the threads.
http://fasagames.com/archiveforum/viewt ... =17&t=1818
With more issues explored in the Etheral Darkness thread http://fasagames.com/archiveforum/viewt ... ight+chest

For your specific questions.
(1) When looking at astral imprints in particular, I interpret them as being hazy and indistinct with a lot of detail lost. An male elf with a sword could easily be mistaken as a human woman with a baggett, or visa versa. I personally tend to carry that forward with regards to a person astrally sensing a native of astral space in astral space. Lets call it 20/100 vision with weird waverings and strange colors, not a lot of detail. But this is my personal vision of the topic, and I can see that others might want to play that the vision is 20/20.

(2) pretty much identical other than a wider choice of angles of view. However I personally play it that the character must always have one point of view. If you are focusing on what is in the bushes, you are not seeing what is happening in the barn. Again there is disagreement with my style.

(3) There are three separate issues. Seeing things in astral space, interpreting what you see, and "reading" the auras that you see. I have talked to people who just assume that at a glance using astral sight that they can identify a spellcaster, locate all of their matrixes, and know which spells are in which matrixes. In my opinion none of these things can be done without the Matrix Sight Talent which is a Warden/Master level talent.
In my opinion you can see that a form is there, but with a poor roll or without taking the time to focus in on the one object, not know if they are carrying a sword or a baggett. I think that actually reading an aura is almost impossible without the use of something such as the aura reading spell, the matrix sight talent or the knack to lifesight that allows it. If such a study can be done, I would expect it to take hours, days, or weeks.

(4) I would assume that most duel natured horrors would know how to avoid instantly giving away their status. I would assume that a bloodshaper masquerading as a name-giver (with his astral form many miles away) would look to astral sight exactly like a name-giver (you see the astral imprint of his physical form, and you see the pattern of his physical form, you almost certainly can't assense the pattern well enough to know that it is a horrors physical form). I would think that the physical and astral forms could merge, or be nearby to each other, and in some horrors and in some situations viewing them in that state might make it obvious that they were related, but in other cases not. Horrors have many unique abilities so it is totally at the gms discretion.

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