Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

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nathaniel
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Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by nathaniel » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:02 am

So I'm looking at my Beastmaster's future Warden Talents and I came across the Circle 12 Discipline Talent: Momentum Attack.

Now once I hit 8th Circle and got Claw Frenzy I noted it states
Claw Frenzy cannot be combined with any talents that allow additional attacks in close or ranged combat, such as Second Attack, Swift Kick, or Momentum Attack.
Why is Momentum Attack the Beastmaster Discipline talent at 12? It 's explicitly disallowed by Claw Frenzy, an earlier Discipline talent.
And If a GM isn't using the Using All Talents To Advance optional rule it's basically a dead talent.
Is this an error? Why isn't Momentum Attack optional instead of discipline?
Last edited by nathaniel on Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bonhumm
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by Bonhumm » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:28 am

'Stacking' Claw Frenzy and Momentum Attack would basically allows the character to do 2 Claw Frenzy per round which would be... kinda OP.

That does not make Momentum Attack a 'wasted' talent; say you are a 12th Circle Adept and have (say) Rank 12 Claw Frenzy then you can make up to 12 attacks in the same round BUT at the cost of 12 strains each round; something that is not sustainable even for a 12th Circle adept.

Thus you know have the option to dial it down to 'only' 2 attacks at the cost of a single strain. Yes, you could just declare 2 attacks with Claw Frenzy as well but:

1- You still double the number of strain
2- Momentum attack is a simple action that allows you to use the rank of what the talent that you have (most likely) has your highest ranking talent (Unarmed Combat) instead of whatever rank you put in Claw Frenzy.

I kinda agree, tho, that I should probably have been a talent option instead.

Other talents have similar restrictions as well: A Swordmaster using Riposte to parry/dodge an attack (and fails) cannot then use Avoid Blow to 're-dodge' the same attack any more than the Beastmaster can 're-claw' his target.

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etherial
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by etherial » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:20 pm

Bonhumm wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:28 am
'Stacking' Claw Frenzy and Momentum Attack would basically allows the character to do 2 Claw Frenzy per round which would be... kinda OP.
Not true, Momentum Attack is a Simple Action and is therefore limited to once per round.

Belenus
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by Belenus » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:18 am

Sounds like a design error to me aswell. :?

jisidro
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by jisidro » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:15 am

Belenus wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:18 am
Sounds like a design error to me aswell. :?
Yup, momentum attack is just a 1 extra attack Claw Frenzy Option as far as I can see.

Karhald
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by Karhald » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:39 pm

I think some folks are missing the main drawback to Claw Frenzy.

You pay all the strain up front and there's no guarantee you will get all of your attacks.

Claw Frenzy is a gamble.
Momentum attack is not.

Claw Frenzy Order of Operations:

Declare # of Attacks.
Pay full strain
Roll Claw Frenzy Attack #1
If hit, roll damage and continue to Claw Frenzy Attack #2, repeat until first miss, or until all attacks are successfully completed.

If miss, stop attack, Claw Frenzy is over.

You could have rank 12 Claw Frenzy, pay the strain for 12 attacks, and miss your first roll, taking a large amount of strain and getting NOTHING for it.

Momentum Attack Order of Operation.
Roll normal attack.
Oh, I hit? Great! I'll roll a Momentum Attack and give 'em the ol' 1,2 puncharoo.

Sharkforce
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by Sharkforce » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:26 pm

if you couldn't just decide to pay 2 strain for claw frenzy, it *might* conceivably be worth paying the cost to get a master tier talent up in ranks. because frankly, if you're so worried that you won't even get 2 attacks, are you really expecting momentum attack to go off anyways?

I mean, we're talking about needing to bring a master tier talent up to rating 13 in order to advance, just to fill the extremely niche scenario that you might want to make a second attack but only a second attack and you also can't afford to pay 2 strain for it. that is a very expensive niche.

Karhald
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by Karhald » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:41 pm

Different scenarios call for different tools.

Fighting a beefy monster with extremely high damage rating but low PD? Claw Frenzy.
Surrounded by Cadaver Men? Claw Frenzy

Fighting an opponent with high PD? Don't risk a huge claw frenzy, maybe only declare 2 or 3 extra attacks.

Didn't declare Claw Frenzy, but landed a huge attack and think you could finish him off in one more attack? Momentum attack time.

Look into the context of the situation and respond accordingly.

Sharkforce
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by Sharkforce » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:06 pm

but the problem here is that scenario 3 could have been accomplished at far lower total cost by simply declaring claw frenzy on the off chance that you need it. yes, it costs an extra strain, but momentum attack is going to cost you 203,000 LP to get up to rating 13 so that you can circle. that is a non-trivial investment. you could probably add an entire 2nd discipline to circle 8 for that much and have a *lot* of LP leftover, adding massive amounts of utility that could be useful in a huge variety of scenarios; you could, for example, do something about the much *higher* probability that it will be highly beneficial at some point to make a ranged attack.

the question is not "is there some niche scenario in which momentum attack could theoretically not be entirely useless". the question is whether or not momentum attack is justified in being a *discipline* warden-tier talent for a beastmaster. it ought to be something that is going to be core for most beastmasters, not something where they could potentially have it come up some day. for example, I would argue that being exceptionally tough (resist pain) feels far more iconic in terms of "combat talents" than momentum attack that cannot stack with what is probably their second most iconic combat talent of all (and I say it is second-most iconic only because claw shape comes in at circle 1 and mostly defines the discipline).

Belenus
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Re: Beastmaster 12th Circle Discipline Talent issue

Post by Belenus » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:32 pm

Totally agree to everything Sharkforce already wrote.

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