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This is some analysis for spells resisted by Physical Armor. Spells resisted by Mystic Armor would be slightly different, but it wouldn't be a significantly different picture.

Assumptions:
- Enemy combatants are same Circle & are Adepts who would follow a similar progression to players
- Physical Armor value: There's a Wizard or Elementalist in the party casting Physical Armor enhancing spells
- Physical Armor value: Incremental upgrade of base armor every tier
- Physical Armor value: Physical Armor forge improvements every odd Circle (with even Circle going to Mystic Armor)
- Physical Armor value: Thread somewhere provides more armor every tier
- Close/Range Damage: Fix base weapon damage of 4
- Close/Range Damage: Forge improvement every Circle
- Close/Range Damage: Attribute improvement by 1 Step @ Circle 6
- Close/Range Damage: Thread on weapon provides more damage every tier
- Close/Range Damage: Damage improvement talent available @ Circle 6
- Spell Damage: Base spell damage of WIL+2 for Novice (Circle 1 spell with 0 threads) then WIL+4 afterwards (Thread 1 spell in Enhanced Matrix with extra successes increasing damage)
- Spell Damage: Attribute improvement by 1 Step @ Circle 6
- Spell Damage: Thread for Effect improvement provides more damage every tier
- Spell Damage: Willforce available @ Circle 6
- Damage improvement talent is used every attack (which isn't a good bet for magicians)

Variables:
- Lack of Wizard or Elementalist in the party will reduce Physical Armor by ~3, +1 every tier above Novice
- Close combat Adepts may invest more in Physical Armor forge improvements than Mystic Armor
- Close combat weapons base damage is usually a bit high
- Close/Range damage does not take into account extra successes, but it is ASSUMED this is balanced with a spell where extra successes also provide extra damage
- Spell secondary effects ignored
- Discipline-specific Talents (both Discipline and Talent) and Karma/Discipline abilities (like the Warrior's damage ability) are ignored

Results:
- Physical armor is ESSENTIALLY 6 @ Novice, 12 @ Journeyman, 18 @ Warden, & 24 @ Master
- Close/Range combat generally exceeds Physical Armor by a flat 5 damage before Circle 6 and then, beginning with Circle 6, an amount equal to the attacker's Circle +5 (e.g., a Circle 10 close/range combatant will do 15 damage [10 + 5]) before extra successes.
- Spell combat without extra threads (i.e., magician gets to attack every turn) generally exceeds Physical Armor by a flat 5 damage.
- Spell combat with maximum extra threads generally exceeds Physical Armor by a flat 4 damage before Circle 6 and then a flat 12 damage beginning with Circle 6.

Conclusion:

If you want to be a magician AND cause huge damage, you're in the wrong system, it is not happening. Without extra threads, you're a chisel, not a sludgehammer. With maximum extra threads, which means you're attacking every two or three turns, you're getting close-ish in single-hit damage with close/range combatants, but your per-turn damage output is garbage. So, the best thing a magician really can do in Earthdawn (Rules As Written [RAW]) is focus on how spells can impact the battlefield in ways that close/range combatants cannot: buffs, debuffs, AoE, denial, wounds, etc. Extra threads, when used, should be sent in that direction, too.

Raw Data:

Physical Armor
Circle Total Base Forge Magic Thread
1 6 2 1 3 0
2 6 2 1 3 0
3 7 2 2 3 0
4 7 2 2 3 0
5 12 4 3 4 1
6 12 4 3 4 1
7 13 4 4 4 1
8 13 4 4 4 1
9 18 6 5 5 2
10 18 6 5 5 2
11 19 6 6 5 2
12 19 6 6 5 2
13 24 8 7 6 3
14 24 8 7 6 3
15 25 8 8 6 3

Close/Ranged Damage
Circle Total Damage-Caused Attribute Base Forge Thread Talent
1 12 6 7 4 1 0 0
2 13 7 7 4 2 0 0
3 14 7 7 4 3 0 0
4 15 8 7 4 4 0 0
5 17 5 7 4 5 1 0
6 25 13 8 4 6 1 6
7 27 14 8 4 7 1 7
8 29 16 8 4 8 1 8
9 32 14 8 4 9 2 9
10 34 16 8 4 10 2 10
11 36 17 8 4 11 2 11
12 38 19 8 4 12 2 12
13 41 17 8 4 13 3 13
14 43 19 8 4 14 3 14
15 45 20 8 4 15 3 15

Spell Damage w/ Max Extra Threads
Circle Total Damage-Caused Attribute Base Forge Thread Talent
1 11 5 7 4 0 0 0
2 11 5 7 4 0 0 0
3 11 4 7 4 0 0 0
4 11 4 7 4 0 0 0
5 16 4 7 8 0 1 0
6 23 11 8 8 0 1 6
7 24 11 8 8 0 1 7
8 25 12 8 8 0 1 8
9 29 11 8 10 0 2 9
10 30 12 8 10 0 2 10
11 31 12 8 10 0 2 11
12 32 13 8 10 0 2 12
13 36 12 8 12 0 3 13
14 37 13 8 12 0 3 14
15 38 13 8 12 0 3 15

Circle Total Damage-Caused Attribute Base Forge Thread Talent
1 9 3 7 2 0 0 0
2 9 3 7 2 0 0 0
3 9 2 7 2 0 0 0
4 9 2 7 2 0 0 0
5 12 0 7 4 0 1 0
6 19 7 8 4 0 1 6
7 20 7 8 4 0 1 7
8 21 8 8 4 0 1 8
9 23 5 8 4 0 2 9
10 24 6 8 4 0 2 10
11 25 6 8 4 0 2 11
12 26 7 8 4 0 2 12
13 28 4 8 4 0 3 13
14 29 5 8 4 0 3 14
15 30 5 8 4 0 3 15

FTFY:

Just lending from experience:

• This is absolutely true.
  Further, it ignores that at Warden and sometimes Journey Tiers close combatants are attacking multiple times.

As a caster, focus on the special abilities - binding, binding, wounds, slowing, adding surprise/blindside/harried and AOE. The AOE you can outstrip a close combatant overall but less damage per party - and this is useful but less often.

One other thing:

• Focus on quickness:
  • Weaving extra thread adds damage? Don't do this if it slows you down (which it doesn't have to if the spell already requires an extra round for you to finish your thread and you can squeeze an extra one in confidently).
  • Weaving extra thread adds more targets or area? Definitely useful. Almost always.
  • Weaving extra thread increases chance of success or decreases opponents chance of resistance? Depends. Can be a life saver but must be weighed against other things. For instance if you can cast the spell twice in the time you can weave an extra thread it is normally better to cast again.

Just lending from experience:

• This is absolutely true.
  Further, it ignores that at Warden and sometimes Journey Tiers close combatants are attacking multiple times.

As a caster, focus on the special abilities - binding, binding, wounds, slowing, adding surprise/blindside/harried and AOE. The AOE you can outstrip a close combatant overall but less damage per party - and this is useful but less often.

One other thing:

• Focus on quickness:
  • Weaving extra thread adds damage? Don't do this if it slows you down (which it doesn't have to if the spell already requires an extra round for you to finish your thread and you can squeeze an extra one in confidently).
  • Weaving extra thread adds more targets or area? Definitely useful. Almost always.
  • Weaving extra thread increases chance of success or decreases opponents chance of resistance? Depends. Can be a life saver but must be weighed against other things. For instance if you can cast the spell twice in the time you can weave an extra thread it is normally better to cast again.

While I generally agree with your recommendations, I personally think it's hard to really say "always/sometimes/never" when it comes to extra threads. The situation, what the magician keeps in matrices, and what they have learned (if they're willing to reattune on the fly) is really going to drive things.

A great example can be found in Earth Darts.

1) Fighting a single, strong enemy? Well, the right approach depends on the enemy. Low wound threshold? Well, if you need that armor as low as you can get, max threads there, then zero-thread next turn. A little less armored, probably split extra threads between duration and penalty, allowing you more turns to ping and hopefully wound. High wound threshold? Starts depending on your allies - might still be worth first spell with max threads split between penalty and duration, followed by a max turn damage, restart rotation.

2) Multiple enemies? Well, do you have Earth Staff? Warden? If you're Journeyman and have Earth Staff, using extra threads doesn't buy you much unless you can guarantee two threads, then you're saving time (3 targets in two turns); otherwise, the added duration from the Earth Staff probably makes zero-thread better. Once you hit Warden, you can reliable pull off two threads on this, meaning you're better off with the extra threads for more targets; karma PROBABLY buys you three threads for even more.

By the by, based strictly on the numbers and the assumption that nothing else is being added for more spell damage improvement (a la the Forge Arcana Knack we were talking about in a separate thread), then I think a table wanting to add a bit more umph for magicians could easily double the Effect damage for extra threads (but NOT extra successes). In most cases, this takes it from +2 to +4. This still means that close/range combat will outshine magicians, but not nearly as much. Plus, it rewards the extra threads for damage (and the subsequent lost turn) a bit more - in many cases, casting every turn and hoping for exploding dice is just plain better than losing a turn for +2/4 damage, and that's just plain wrong.

The Undying wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:50 pm

While I generally agree with your recommendations, I personally think it's hard to really say "always/sometimes/never" when it comes to extra threads. The situation, what the magician keeps in matrices, and what they have learned (if they're willing to reattune on the fly) is really going to drive things.

No argument here. I had intended to indicate it as a general "rule of thumb". There is definitely no catch all.

As for your comment on the extra thread causing +2/+4 damage (or effect): my experience is this is only normally useful if you have time and need to bypass armor or if you are already spending a round weaving threads (for some other necessary reason) and can fit it in.

Excellent information - Thank you!!!

I do want to add an extra caveat to all this:

At Warden/Master, magicians do get access to the Effect Pattern Option Talent. For spells that deal damage as their effect, this can make a huge change in their damage output, depending on how the Talent is actually written in ED4. It does take Strain, though, which is always an issue for magicians. Also, it's coming in at a time when the other combat-focused Disciplines are getting their "I get to attack 80 times in one round" boulder rolling.

Now I'm pretty new to this game, but one thing I noticed in regards to magicians damage output. It might not look as impressive right of the bat, but for what it's worth spellcaster do tend to target Mys Defences, which in general is much lower. I believe this will put the damage output more on par, though I have yet to test this is in more then a few scenarios. So sorry in advance, if I'm off on my presumptions, or if you already considered this in the debate