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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Tue Jun 03, 2025 11:15 am
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun May 25, 2025 10:40 am
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Statistics:Posted by etherial — Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:04 pm
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Panda wrote: ↑
On a quick read through, many of the proposed effects replicate (and effectively invalidate) Warden tier talents. As well, that's a complicated series of effects with the assorted caveats. That's not something to undertake lightly, however you should do what works best for your table.
From a broader perspective, there's issues with throwing weapons as a fighting style and it's not an easy thing to fix. It involves some fundamental assumptions and design of the system. This is a topic I work at from various angles in my free time (what little there is lately).
Hey Panda,Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:41 am
Greetings,On a quick read through, many of the proposed effects replicate (and effectively invalidate) Warden tier talents. As well, that's a complicated series of effects with the assorted caveats. That's not something to undertake lightly, however you should do what works best for your table.
From a broader perspective, there's issues with throwing weapons as a fighting style and it's not an easy thing to fix. It involves some fundamental assumptions and design of the system. This is a topic I work at from various angles in my free time (what little there is lately).
Thanks for dropping by
I will have to go through my companion again and see which talents I'm messing with. Knowing where the character is probably going, this might be more or less of an issue for my table.
I do agree with ChrisDDickey though, rank 5 seems redundant in ED4. I like the Rank 1 power, and I started with something similar at first. However, the problem was that these daggers would have to be hidden before they could be put to better use. It's not hard to already have a bunch of daggers hidden on your character, so this power was scrapped from my first draft.
I also didn't want to just straight up steal the formular of the devastator spear and just make it a dagger, that just wouldn't have fit the theme.
EDIT: Okay, the Rank 5 Power is basically a weaker Beguiling Blade. I think I'll take this one out completely and replace it with a more mundane effect. The Item should still work fine without but I'll have to adapt the conditions on Rank 7 a bit.
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:37 am
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Panda wrote: ↑
Effect: The dagger preys on those trapped in darkness. The owner can use Surprise Strike on Blinded targets.
Isn't the Rank 5 power redundant in 4th edition? Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:41 am
Rank FiveEffect: The dagger preys on those trapped in darkness. The owner can use Surprise Strike on Blinded targets.
Surprise Strike can by default be used against BlindSided opponents, and being Blinded is one of the conditions that causes Blindsiding.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:03 am
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On a quick read through, many of the proposed effects replicate (and effectively invalidate) Warden tier talents. As well, that's a complicated series of effects with the assorted caveats. That's not something to undertake lightly, however you should do what works best for your table.
From a broader perspective, there's issues with throwing weapons as a fighting style and it's not an easy thing to fix. It involves some fundamental assumptions and design of the system. This is a topic I work at from various angles in my free time (what little there is lately).
Here is a thread item I wrote a while back with regard to this topic while fiddling with Discipline design. It's just a first draft, so may have issues, but it may also provide some help.
Best regards,
Morgan
Shadow Dagger, The
Maximum Threads: 2
Mystic Defense: 16
Tier: Warden
Rank One
Effect: For 1 Strain, the dagger’s shadow produces a number of identical weapons equal to the thread rank. These last for thread rank round before dissolving into darkness.
Rank Two
Effect: The dagger is Damage Step 4.
Rank Three
Effect: The owner gains +1 to Attack tests with the dagger.
Rank Four
Effect: The dagger is Damage Step 5.
Rank Five
Effect: The dagger preys on those trapped in darkness. The owner can use Surprise Strike on Blinded targets.
Rank Six
Effect: The owner gains +2 to Attack tests with the dagger.
Rank Seven
Effect: The owner gains the Stolen Sight special maneuver.
Stolen Sight (Owner, The Shadow Dagger): For 1 Strain, the adept can spend two additional successes on an Attack test to inflict Blindness on the target until the end of the next round.
Rank Eight
Effect: The dagger is Damage Step 6 and the owner gains +3 to Attack tests with the dagger.
Statistics:Posted by Panda — Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:41 am
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The descriptions are now as follows:
Rank 2:
I scrapped the extra range and the dagger now only returns to the owner.
Rank 3:
The Adept can use the Phantom Dagger Power. This creates and illusory projectile that can be thrown like a normal dagger. The Adept uses his Throwing Weapon Step against the target's MD and determines damage based on WIL+4/physical. (I avoid the weapon damage step because of forge weapon being a thing)
The physical dagger does not leave the adepts body but must be hidden from the target. (extra limitation)
This attack counts as an illusion and allows the disbelief option. Extra successes count as they do for normal attacks.
Rank 5:
As before but with the new mechanic of Conceal Object as a simple action. I specifically mention the cumulative +2 to discovering the dagger.
Rank 6:
Surprise Strike counts towards the Rank 3 Power, still allowing the attacked enemy a free test to discover the physical dagger. (This makes it harder and harder to keep using the power.)
Rank 7:
The Adept can use the Blot out the Sun Power. The thrown dagger turns into countless projectiles and creates the illusion of small shadows covering the target area.
The Adept makes a throwing weapon test against the highest MD within 6m of the central target, dealing WIL+8/physical damage.
In order to use the power, the physical dagger itself has to deal damage to the central target in the previous round. (Should make the use of this power limited enough: the actual item has not only make contact with the target but also deal damage. If the thief want to take any other standard actions, he cannot us this power for another 2 rounds.)
This power counts as an illusion and allows the disbelief option. Extra successes count like they do for normal attacks.
Rank 8:
Unchanged, I am aware that this is really strong but I just want this to be there.
The illusions will be the bread and butter of this item, while the true version will only apply to targets that are smart or perceptive enough to disbelief.
I will probably still tinker with the damage steps and strain but this will probably be the framework now.
Rank 1 and 4 might still be subject to change. since the item relies on Throwing weapons being high, and conceal object, I think it would be best to leave these talents untouched by this item.
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:34 pm
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"For 1 strain, the adept may use the 'phantom dagger' power, He throws the dagger as normal, but in the air the dagger transforms into a phantom of itself and the target number to hit is the targets Mystic Defense instead of Physical Defense and damage is based upon the weapons damage plus WIL instead of STR. The damage is still reduced by Physical Armor."
This allows you to get the same effect. Having gotten rid of the illusion keyword, there is no reason to ever put in the a 2nd version of the spell that does not have it.
And then the rank 6 power feels more natural, just say that when using the Phantom Dagger option, Surprise Strike rank can be added to the WIL effect of the phantom dagger.
That way with just two powers, the Adept has a choice of ether making a throwing weapons test against PD, with damage calculated off of STR with surprise strike adding to it, or pay one extra strain to make a throwing weapons test against MD, with damage calculated off of WIL with surprise strike adding to it. Simple, straightforward, clean. Probably not too broken.
Same with the area effect version. Remove all references to spells. Just state the strain cost, Area of Effect, and damage. And I would not give two version of the area of effect power. Just pick one. If you base it off of Illusionary missile spell and keep the higher damage, then keep the illusion keyword and disbelief. If you base it off of True IM, it can't be disbelieved. Pick whether you want it to target PD and be STR based or MD and be WIL based. Or you could give both, but I don't see the point. Having 3 ways to throw this dagger is probably sufficient. Don't need a 4th.
I do however think that the Adept should be discouraged from using the area effect power each and every round. The spell has 2 threads, so even in an enhanced matrix requires a minimum of two rounds to cast. Ether bump the strain up a lot (say to 5), or just say that that effect can only be used every 3rd round, or something like that. Being able to use that power every 3rd round but still being able to perform other actions the other two is still more powerful than a spell that takes two or more rounds to cast.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:23 am
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Rank 2:
The 28/40 was a typo, it is 20/40 in the German version, which I wrote first. But I will just scrap the range and make it just return to the owner in the final version.
The reason why I didn't make it a flight dagger wasn't anything in particular. I wasn't actively trying to min-max this item in every aspect, even though it did turn out to be too powerful in the end. Less due to min-maxing and more so because of ignorance.
Rank 3:
As for the phantom dagger power itself, I was planning for it to be STR-based from the beginning but didn't want it to be too wordy. However, I can see why this leaves room for misinterpretation and then goes straight to the realms of silly.
The whole idea of this item was to be a "Dagger of many Daggers", with the disadvantage that these are all illusions.
I will rewrite this one properly after some more deliberation. The wording in the rules being that it only had to be an effect "similar" to a low circle spell made me think that my changes would have been according to rules.
Rank 5:
The original Idea was to have a single Conceal Object result persist but giving the enemy the cumulative +2 for discovering the dagger after every attack. I thought that eventually it would balance out but be a rally good weapon vs regular Joes.
I like the simple action for Conceal Object much better though, I will use that in the final version I think. This will also be a source of constant Strain.
Rank 6:
Again, I did not see it that dramatic and from a power-gaming perspective this would very well be. My group, however, isn't all that min-max oriented which is probably why I never saw it this way. Most of our characters fill more than one role and maybe characters have "off-discipline" skills to make them more rounded. The only specialist we have in our group is really the Nethermancer.
As I mentioned before, the Rank 3 power was supposed to be essentially the same as a throwing dagger, being STR-based. I never meant for it to be breaking the damage calculations.
According to your own logic, this only holds up if the wielder of the dagger doesn't get access to spellcasting (second discipline/versatility, etc.) Suddenly, this would still be just as OPSo in the Rank 3 power, you let them cast a spell using Throwing Weapons which they can increase as high as they want and spend karma on instead of PER + Rank (which maxes out at rank 8, and they can't spend karma on it.
Rank 7: Yes, no surprise strike on this one. Even I realise that this would have made this item Silly. Again, the same thinking applies to this on as to the previous power.
I will also have to rewrite this one accordingly.
Rank 8:
I am aware that this one is technically 2 powers but this was planned to be a higher power level than the rules intend. The whole True spell versions after learning the truth has a more thematic reasoning behind it. I will probably keep this as it but throw in extra strain.
This whole thing will be the end of a larger adventure arc and everyone in the group will end up getting a big reward. The Thief in the group just happens to get his reward in form of this rank.
Overall, this thing still needs work. I would stil appreciate more input and ideas on how to improve this since it's still some time away until it'll be implemented in my campaign.
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:03 am
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First off, you translate this into a "throwing knife". I assume this would be referred to in the English book as a "throwing dagger". Why start with a "throwing dagger" and not a "flight dagger". Anybody who is going to spend thousands of silver pieces making a Warden level thread item ought to spring for the extra 23 silver pieces to start with a flight dagger instead of a throwing dagger.
Rank 2, the range of the dagger increases to 28/40.
Page 204 of the DMG says that one it is a Novice level TI power to increase both short and long range by 25%.
Assuming it is a throwing dagger, the increased range should be 20/40. Assuming the item is a flight dagger, the new range should be 26/50 (rounding up to nearest even number).
Rank 2, The Dagger also magically reappears on the Adepts Body after Throwing it.
The newly released companion has the Talent Knack "Returning" as a Rank 4 knack of the "Thrown weapons" skill (meaning it takes 500 LP to acquire it). It is a Free Action and costs one strain.
Now I don't have a problem with giving this ability for free as part of a rank 1 or rank 2 power, but I think it still ought to cost 1 strain. Or maybe make it it's own stand along power that does not cost any strain. But if you are giving it as a bonus power, it ought to still cost it's strain.
I also have problems with the rank 3 power.
If you replace the phrase "but replaces the Spellcasting Test with Throwing Weapons", with "The owner uses either Spellcasting or PER + thread rank as the Step for the test." it is a textbook case of an unexceptionable use of "A special ability similar to a spell up to Second Circle that costs 1 Strain to use". Nothing wrong with any of the rest of it. The rest of it is a perfect example of a typical novice power. but adding in "but replaces the spellcasting Test with Throwing Weapons" is super overpowered. One MIGHT be able to argue that as a stand alone rank 5-8 power it would not be overpowered. But I would disagree. Throwing it in as a minor side-effect is most definitely overpowered.
Also, generally you have to hold or at least touch items to activate it. This seems poorly themed, in that you have an item that you (a) want concealed. and that (b) the adept ought to be holding or frequently touching in order to activate it's spell-like powers. Have you considered moving the spell-like powers out into a separate TI. One that is not supposed to always be concealed?
Rank 5: Again this is worded so as to be somewhat hazy about what is really happening and certain interpretations could be overpowered. It might be more appropriate to say
"While the item returns to the owner after being thrown, the owner may make a new Conceal Object test as a simple action." This way the Adept can't just keep one good roll forever. He needs to keep rolling dice. Spending Strain, and possibly spending karma to keep the conceal magic going. Also, it makes it more clear that each time he throws it, he is concealing it again, so each time the targets get +2 added to their attempts to see where the concealed item is. But he does still get to conceal it again the same round he threw it, so it makes his surprise strike doubly effective. Possibly overpowered even after you make the other fixes here.
Rank 6: How is it that Surprise Strike counts towards the Phantom Dagger power? Is Phantom Dagger now using STR instead of WIL? or Is Surprise Strike now buffing WIL as well as STR?
So in the Rank 3 power, you let them cast a spell using Throwing Weapons which they can increase as high as they want and spend karma on instead of PER + Rank (which maxes out at rank 8, and they can't spend karma on it. Now in Rank 6 you are changing how damage is calculated as well? Yes, this is overpowered.
Rank 7: Just to be clear, you are saying that Surprise Strike an only be used with Epherial Bolt and True EB, not with the Area of Effect Illusionary Missiles and True IL, correct? Because Surprise Strike with an Area of Effect would be ridiculous. Again, if cast with Spellcasting or Per + Rank there would be nothing wrong, other than that I would add an additional 2 strain to sub in for the 2 spell threads that would not have to be pulled (making this power a 5 strain power). But subbing in Thrown Weapons instead is way overpowered.
Rank 8: A rank 8 power can ether have a power similar to one 6th circle spell, or two powers similar to two 1st circle spells. It should not have two powers, one of which is similar to a 6th circle spell, and one similar to a 1st circle spell. And it should not sub in Thrown Weapons instead of Spellcasting or Per + Rank.
So all in all, you have enough powers in this one item, for two magic items. having thrown many very powerful powers in for free.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:18 am
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I am currently working on a Thread Item for a Thief that uses throwing Weapons and is generally more combat focused.
The general Idea is to make this his go-to weapon for most encounters, eliminating the need to carry 20+ throwing knives hidden all over his body.
The item is intended to be purely offensive, while also giving some quality of live.
Some feedback would be welcome, as I am still not 100% happy with the current iteration. Really anything goes, if you have ideas that could fit the general theme of the item better then go ahead and throw them at me. pun intended
Here the English Version (translated from the German Original): (Key Knowledge in Spoilers in case someone doesn't want my planned adventure hooks)
The Phantom Dagger is the weapon of a pre-scourge Thief adept. Not much is known about him, other than the fact that he attempted to steal the knowledge on how to construct Kaers from the Theran Empire. His methods were brutal and he left behind a sea of blood. Despite the Theran empire's proficiency in Magic, they were never able to find out the Thief's identity or whereabouts. The adept was not jsut a Thief but also an Illusionist, and he always killed from afar or from the shadows. It is not known whether he managed to steal the knowledge, this is the object of many conflicting rumors. Some of those rumors say that he disappeared when Parlainth was transported to another plane. The other rumors claim, that he took the stolen knowlege back to his own hometown. There he used the wealth of his past exploits and the stolen knowledge to create a Kaer of his own.
Rank 1Throwing Weapons +1Rank 2The Range of the Dagger ist now 28/40. The Dagger also magically reappears on the Adepts Body after Throwing it.Spoiler:
Rank 3For 1 Strain, the Adept may use the "Phantom Dagger" Power. It is an imitation of the Ephemeral Bolt Spell but replaces the Spellcasting Test with Throwing Weapons. No extra Threads possible but extra successes apply. The Dagger never leaves the Adepts Body when using this power.Rank 4Throwing Weapons +2Spoiler:
Rank 5After returning to the Adepts body, the Phantom Dagger keeps its Conceal Object Difficult Step. This is active until the Adapt tries to Conceal the Dagger again or an enemy successful spots the hidden Dagger on the Adepts Body.Rank 6Surprise Strike now also counts towards the Phantom Dagger Power. When the Power is being used, the enemy gets a chance to Spot the Phantom Dagger on the Adepts Body, as if the Dagger had been physically thrown.Spoiler:
Is Rank 6 too Strong?
Rank 7For 3 Strain the Phantom Dagger can be thrown and turns into a hail of projectiles. This effect imitates the Illusiory Missles Spell but replaces the Spellcasting Test with Throwing Weapons. No extra Threads possibleRank 8The Adept now has access to the "True" versions of both Spells that the Dagger imitates. The same Modifications and Limitations apply.Spoiler:Spoiler:
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:30 pm
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