инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинйоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфо
инфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоинфоtuchkasинфоинфо
Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:42 am
]]>
цветЛисаTesc1с67ChocBandReneXVIIHergLafaГекеЗН-9ParaMavaУсенКитасертKariFreeRomaJameЛернAloe
RichразнMathМищеWendПетиStorTurnСержdarkПоликрокCoreубийИллюуведMennblacNikithesSympRudoDisc
DisnЗимеНаумBertМиркпостWaltАлеккульBarbRichКалуMickРоссчистAnneZoneКуременяKakiРазмПанфменя
SwarавточисткараMaryTakeВолоЕлинвозрпокиMagdBranAnitПетрRaquКрюкWillозвуRobeDereFranAntoКорз
ЛЛКовоскукраSonyРоссDjanDavoбежеBookинстBookBeflАртиHM60СтарЯремEnha9061STARклейГригсистcomp
тексXVIIдекоTintHellJohnRollБабеЕвтеmailраскDremскласертBritБермPaulКушнЦареWhenСероКолыобра
продГулипрепАтмоАлпаqбетПоляБобрButcVictCourШколPinkКозыTonyLuciшанссалоKillЧудаЯковDamnповы
RogeЕгорГолуКондкиновыруКрылВацлМетаHughРусеповехудоВладВелиНасиЕсенЦалюЭвалЕремавтоSonySony
SonyнеблMartRichHappSworPeteКапнвузоXXVI41-4МомдКогаtuchkasМихаСочи
Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun May 25, 2025 12:52 am
]]>
ottdmk wrote: ↑
Edited to add:
And... somehow I missed that I hadn't read through the whole thread. Oops. I still think the language used supports my theory, but given that Mataxes has said a standard magician ends up with two Standard and two Enhanced, I would say my interpretation is wrong. Move along, nothing to see here...
If I squint I can see where you're coming from.Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:08 pm
Looking at the Player's Guide and the released material from the Companion, I think that you can probably buy more than one Matrix. "Each <MATRIX NAME> represents a separate talent with its own Rank, and is improved independently." This language is maintained for every Matrix type. Given that, I would say that a Spellcaster could buy Standard Matrix as their Talent Option on each circle up to Fourth if they want to, then Enhanced every circle through 8th, Armored through 12th and Shared through 15th should they want. Personally, I wouldn't go that way; there are so many useful Talents out there. I think it's possible though.Edited to add:
And... somehow I missed that I hadn't read through the whole thread. Oops. I still think the language used supports my theory, but given that Mataxes has said a standard magician ends up with two Standard and two Enhanced, I would say my interpretation is wrong. Move along, nothing to see here...
The Player's Guide relied a bit too much on recycling previous rules text, and often things are only "clear" with knowledge of the game's development history.
In ED1, there were no "optional" talents. At each circle, you had a couple of choices. The total number of matrices a magician could learn was determined by how many were in their progression. For example, Wizards only got 3 standard matrices (just called Spell Matrix in that edition), while the others got 4. Wizards made up for it by having an extra... higher one. (Armored, I think? But I don't recall offhand and don't want to go down the rabbit hole of figuring it out.)
When ED3 came along, and officially introduced the idea of optional talents, nearly all matrices were "optional" -- and the option list had a number of entries for the maximum number of matrices the magician could learn. For example, Wizard had one Standard Matrix as part of their C1 "Discipline" talents, and one Standard Matrix as a Novice (C1) talent option.
(If you didn't know, ED3 had two batches of "options" for C1-4; one "Initiate" batch you could pick from as your additional C1 talent, and a few more "Novice" options that became available starting at C2.)
In the Novice options it lists Standard Matrix twice. The idea being that you can take (up to) two additional matrices as options if you want.
Long story short, when we gave magicians two free matrices, we dropped to only one additional as an option. It could, perhaps, be clearer. Hindsight of realizing not everybody picking up the game would have the history and familiarity with it that I do.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:32 am
]]>
]]>
Edited to add:
And... somehow I missed that I hadn't read through the whole thread. Oops. I still think the language used supports my theory, but given that Mataxes has said a standard magician ends up with two Standard and two Enhanced, I would say my interpretation is wrong. Move along, nothing to see here...
Statistics:Posted by ottdmk — Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:08 pm
]]>
Anunnaki wrote: ↑
Basically, it "capped" the maximum number of spell matrices magicians could learn, regardless of the number of Disciplines to which they belong, to:
Spell Matrices: 5
Enhanced Matrices: 4
Armored Matrices: 3
Shared Matrices: 3
Spell Matrix Objects are an exception to this rule.
Hope this helps!
Take kaer, James
Thats it. See, I'm not always tainted....err....crazy, yeah, crazy....Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:41 am
Hiya,ED3 Player's Guide, p.134, if you have access and would like the reference.etherial wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:53 pmIt was ED3's attempt to fix the MultiDiscipline Spellcaster issue.Dale wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:52 pmI recall seeing a chart in a previous edition book that laid out the maximum amount of matrix one could have. I've looked in 2nd edition core, 1st edition core/companion, and the 2 first edition magic supplements and can't locate it now. It might work as a guideline.
Basically, it "capped" the maximum number of spell matrices magicians could learn, regardless of the number of Disciplines to which they belong, to:
Spell Matrices: 5
Enhanced Matrices: 4
Armored Matrices: 3
Shared Matrices: 3
Spell Matrix Objects are an exception to this rule.
Hope this helps!
Take kaer, James
Statistics:Posted by Dale — Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:04 am
]]>
ED3 Player's Guide, p.134, if you have access and would like the reference.etherial wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:53 pmIt was ED3's attempt to fix the MultiDiscipline Spellcaster issue.Dale wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:52 pmI recall seeing a chart in a previous edition book that laid out the maximum amount of matrix one could have. I've looked in 2nd edition core, 1st edition core/companion, and the 2 first edition magic supplements and can't locate it now. It might work as a guideline.
Basically, it "capped" the maximum number of spell matrices magicians could learn, regardless of the number of Disciplines to which they belong, to:
Spell Matrices: 5
Enhanced Matrices: 4
Armored Matrices: 3
Shared Matrices: 3
Spell Matrix Objects are an exception to this rule.
Hope this helps!
Take kaer, James
Statistics:Posted by Anunnaki — Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:41 am
]]>
Dale wrote: ↑
It was ED3's attempt to fix the MultiDiscipline Spellcaster issue.Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:52 pm
I recall seeing a chart in a previous edition book that laid out the maximum amount of matrix one could have. I've looked in 2nd edition core, 1st edition core/companion, and the 2 first edition magic supplements and can't locate it now. It might work as a guideline.Statistics:Posted by etherial — Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:53 pm
]]>
]]>
I don't have an official stance on matrices through Versatility.
Personally, I think if you want to cast spells, you should probably be a magician. using Versatility isn't a very effective or efficient way to do that. I mean, you can, but you're spending (relatively) a lot of Legend for not as much impact even before you get to the question of matrices. You can't spend Karma on thread weaving/spellcasting tests for Versatile versions of those talents, and you don't have access to the options available through extra threads (those are based on your magician circle, which you don't have).
Matrices are in a unique place in ED4 -- it's the only talent where you have a reason to learn it more than once. It's also established each matrix is individual and tracked individually in terms of what spell it contains. I think it's ultimately a limitation of the talent system and its interactions with the "reality" of the game world.
Each table needs to decide what works best for them. There are a number of ways to approach it, and it reaches beyond just matrices in terms of things to consider.
* You can't learn "free talents" with Versatility. (The consequences of this mean you can't learn Air Sailing from Air Sailors, or Navigation from Scouts. Those are both talents that make a lot of sense to pick up under Versatility, and it makes sense that you should be able to learn them from those Disciplines.)
* "Free talents" are still talents, and so can be learned as if they were a talent. (This gives you more potential matrices, and other normal talents from adepts who get them for free, but opens up access to the broader "Entertainer" and "Craftsman" talents that are given to Troubadours/Weaponsmiths as a way to give them abilities they should have, but don't make sense as a bunch of discrete talents, and are more strongly defining an aspect of their half-magic. The abilities aren't especially powerful, so it's not game breaking or anything, but it does potentialyl steal some flavor from those Disciplines.)
* Setting aside the free talents, are matrices from different Magician Disciplines different for this purpose? That is, could Versatility be used to pick up the optional matrix from Elementalist and Wizard? (I don't like or condone this option, to be honest. It echoes the "Discipline specific" matrices from ED2, which I never thought were a good way to limit casters. And matrix items are a thing.)
If you want to allow Versatility to learn more than one of each type of matrix, I would do a couple things:
* Limit the maximum number of matrices through Versatility to the limit full magicians have.
* Any "free" standard matrices learned need to be increased with Legend Points as if they were First Circle talents (with the cost increase required through Versatility).
* There is no free upgrade from Standard to Enhanced matrix. Full magicians end up with 2 Standard and 2 Enhanced (assuming they take the optional ones as extra), Versatility is limited to 3 Standard and 1 Enhanced.
* I'm torn on whether to allow human magicians to pick up the "option" from another magician rather than take it themselves. I would probably allow it, but not to exceed the normal limit. I mean... if they want to spend more points on something than they otherwise would, that's on them I guess. (Again, matrix items are a thing.)
And feel free to mix and match with regard to other free talents. Maybe you'll allow Air Sailing/Navigation/Call Missile/Danger Sense from Disciplines that get those for free, but not matrices or Entertainer/Craftsman. That's fine. Whatever you and your table agree on.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:18 pm
]]>
Jason wrote: ↑
I don't have access to the Player's Guide at the moment (I'm about 10000 miles from home right now), can you quote the passage in question?Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:03 pm
See page 85 related to learning more then one as a talent option.It comes down to the fact that all four magicians start with two Standard Matrices and are still able to purchase the talent as an optional talent. No other discipline that receives a bonus talent has the ability to purchase said talent again (and really, there wouldn't be much point), but Standard Matrix seems to be an exception to that rule. Furthermore, note that the bonus Standard Matrices rank up automatically with circle, but the purchased one would not. Thus, having to rank up one or more Standard Matrix talents with Legend Points seems more than balanced when interacting with Versatility.As to your belief that it can be purchased multiple times, could you provide a citation on how you get to that belief? Because if versatility allowed one to pick up more then 1x of a talent, there are multiples that a Human could use to be better then others... Including learning extra matrices.
If there was explicit text stating magicians are allowed multiple copies of the talent as an exception to the rule, then this would be a clear cut issue. But since said text doesn't exist, the implication is that there is no exception to the rule, but rather that the talent can be taken by anyone with access to it multiple times.
That's my reasoning, anyway, and that's why I'd like to see the rule that contradicts my interpretation, if one exists.
Statistics:Posted by delroland — Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:12 pm
]]>
]]>
Versatility lets you buy 1 Spell Matrix talent, 1 Enhanced Matrix and so on.
2 Free Matrix for mages are discipline only creations. They only go up with Circle of that spellcasting discipline. So even getting them with Versatility gives you nothing as your spellcasting Discipline Circle = 0.
Statistics:Posted by RazanMG — Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:10 pm
]]>
delroland wrote: ↑
See page 85 related to learning more then one as a talent option.Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:03 pm
Is this the official rule, or is this your opinion? If the former, would you provide a citation?
As to your belief that it can be purchased multiple times, could you provide a citation on how you get to that belief? Because if versatility allowed one to pick up more then 1x of a talent, there are multiples that a Human could use to be better then others... Including learning extra matrices.
Statistics:Posted by Jason — Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:03 pm
]]>
etherial wrote: ↑
Is this the official rule, or is this your opinion? If the former, would you provide a citation?Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:47 pm
It can be purchased exactly once. As a Discipline Benefit, Spellcasters get two extra for free.Statistics:Posted by delroland — Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:03 pm
]]>