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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:05 am
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun May 25, 2025 12:15 am
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Cutting Words!
Statistics:Posted by Kosmit — Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:43 am
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Reciprocity wrote: ↑
That makes sense to me. Either treat it as a Combat Option (you're using the shield as defense or you're not) or as an equipment choice (if you are wearing a shield at the top of the round, you get the defense bonus but cannot attack with the offhand for the round).Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:16 pm
The shields biggest advantage is increased defense. So why not - during intentions phase, you just say if shield is used to bash or make an attack you lose the defense for that round.The complication is that intention declaration in ED4 was reduced - you don't need to be very specific at all. No reason a little extra beef can't be added to handle problem areas though, esp if it's marked as a Combat Option.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:48 pm
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So, no love for the straight Warrior hoping to pull off five attacks as Journeyman. S/he will just have to get by with four SOME HOW.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:48 pm
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I need popcorn, and am taking bets on when the vein in Mataxes head pulses to the point where it becomes a full blown embolism )
Right im editing:
And have to ask this in all seriousness, we have a warrior whos read the PDF version ...which annoyingly worded different to the book version...and is convinced Shield Bash offers and an additional attack regardless....so gets a normal attack and a shield bash just as shield bash is an additional attack not involving second attack or second weapon....
Id appreciate a couple of responses so i can at least take a screen shot or direct him here!
Statistics:Posted by Calamrin — Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:31 pm
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I never "ENVISIONED" a shield bash to be "hitting" with my sword and substituting the shield bash rank + SRT as the damage.
I always saw it as hitting someone with my shield, period. If it does damage great! If it knocks them down better! The actual order of sword or shield first did not really matter. So in a sense shield bash was a different form of second weapon. It had the advantage of an automatic knockdown test and the disadvantage that it (probably) did less damage. (not having a damage step or the ability to be forged).
Second weapon had the advantage of damage step and forge.
Second attack is really no different. Instead of getting a second attack with my sword - for what ever reason I choose to use my shield. Less possible damage for the above same reasons.
I don't see anything wrong or game breaking.
Using the shield bash first leaves the possibility of actually hitting a knocked down opponent... even better!
The shields biggest advantage is increased defense. So why not - during intentions phase, you just say if shield is used to bash or make an attack you lose the defense for that round.
Still makes two handed, sword and board and Florentine style combat choices as viable options. And you still can only do the talent once a round. Technically you could shield bash, attack with shield, then do second attack with same shield if you had all the talents... Only reason I would ever see for doing this was because you had just been disarmed of your sword.
Statistics:Posted by Reciprocity — Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:16 pm
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Statistics:Posted by etherial — Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:53 pm
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If they want to change how it is used they could add some simple statements like "this talent can be used with ..." or "this talent cannot be used with ...", or "this talent can only be used as ...".
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:05 am
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Mataxes has said that Shield Bash was made not to work with Second Weapon for play balance reasons and I see and accept that.
However I can see little reason why, in theory, it should not remain usable with Second Attack and most other additional attacks. If you make it so that it is unusable with additional attacks, then I see little reason why anybody who will get a 2nd attack would ever choose it as a Talent Option. I strongly suspect the real goal is they don't want warriors to overuse it, and are trying to find a justification for it other than "cause we said".
Shield Bash, in and of itself seems a nice option. It gives a good amount of damage (though probably several steps less than a well forged sword), and a good chance of achieving a knockdown of your foe. It seems like a good choice to frequently use when you only have one attack available to you.
However if you have a an second attack available to you, you can duplicate and improve the effects of a Shield Bash by making an attack to Knockdown, followed by a normal attack, Both of those attacks would have the advantage of your weapons forging, so would in general be superior attacks, so there is little point having the talent any more (I guess Shield Bash uses one less karma, but that is it). In any case, once you you have 2nd Attack, Shield Bash is probably no longer worth advancing as a Talent Option.
I went through the standard disciplines (Novice and Journeyman circles) that get Shield Bash or extra attacks as a Discipline or Option talent and this is what I see:
- Sky Raider: Shield Bash is a solid option for them for circles 1 through 4. However at 5th circle they pick up both the ability to add Karma to damage rolls made with melee weapons of a certain size, and the ability to pick up Second Weapon as a talent option. Shields, not having a weapon size, would not get the bonus karma die (but being a damage replacement, you can roll one karma anyway - but the power does not allow you to roll a 2nd karma) At that point the attraction of twin broadswords or twin troll swords will often become more attractive than a single Shield Bash to all but the most timid Sky Raider (and who ever heard of a timid Sky Raider). Before Shield Bash / Second Weapon combo got nerfed, that combo was a solid choice. One 1-handed weapon with karma spent on damage, plus one Shield Bash (with karma spent on damage), plus the benefits of a shield. But if you can't use Shield Bash with 2nd weapon, the choice between making one attack and using a shield, and wielding two 1-handed weapons and getting karma on the damage of both of them, unless the party has a spellcaster that casts buffs dependent upon the target having a shield, the balance will often swing towards the more aggressive option.
- Swordmaster: Does not get Shield Bash. Does get Second Weapon, Riposte, and Second Attack. Shield Bash, as presently constituted is not really useful for them to pick up as Versatility.
- Warrior: The warrior is probably the problem here. The Warrior is the only discipline that gets Second Attack natively at Journeyman levels. With Air Dance, Momentum Attack, Second Weapon, Swift Kick, and Second Attack, The Warrior is a mincing machine. As things stand Shield Bash seems to be compatible with all of these attacks except Second Weapon and Swift Kick. Nerfing it just for Second Attack still leaves it usable for the additional attacks granted by Air Dance and Momentum Attack. One of the things Mataxes mentioned as being under consideration was nerfing it for all attacks that don't use a standard action. This would of course make Second Attack unusable any round that Shield Bash was used, and would probably cause it to be dropped from the repertoire of High Circle Warriors for the same reasons as discussed above. A medium ground might simply be to errata it such that Shield Bash can only be used once per round. That would still allow it to be used with ether Air Dances or Momentum Attacks additional attack, but not both in the same round.
- A Weaponsmith can get Shield Bash as a novice Talent Option and has no additional attacks of any sort, so Shield Bash attacks would be a very solid choice for him EXCEPT that this is the one class that will always have unlimited and cheap access to well forged weapons, and shields may not be forged to bash more effectively. This is a class that might see Shield Bashes used routinely, but I don't see it being ruined if a human took 2nd Attack as a versatility and made two shield bashes.
- I will just toss in that a human Cavalryman who took Shield Bash as Versatility might be interesting, but really, a successful charge with a well forged lance knocks the target down often enough as to make a Shield Bash not worth the bother.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:53 am
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Seems to me that the volume of this thread is a good indication that the talent is NOT fine as it is currently written. Lack of previous questions does not mean lack of confusion: I never gave this Talent a second glance until I saw it in the errata Thread, and the guy who had it in our group never used it. However as soon as it came to my attention, it spawned LOTS of questions. For all any of us know, a poll of 20 tables could indicate that people are using this Talent 11 different, incompatible ways. To them, it may seem like it's completely clear to them, and yet the fact that there is so diverse an interpretation would mean that there are clearly problems with it. Finally, the fact that The ED Design Team feels that clarification is needed (and I expect they are clarifications to bring use of the Talent in line with their vision for it, I don't think they're running around changing rules under people's feet) is a good indication they think the Talent is being misinterpreted (and, hence, is not fine as written).
Anyways, my suggestions are free for all to apply or ignore if they see fit. If Mataxes finds them useful, wonderful, happy to be of service! If he does not, no harm and no foul!
I think both our opinions are well represented at this point, so not sure if there's more matter to cover (and no one is really benefiting from repeating the same an opinion over and over, nor bantering about wording).Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:13 am
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Honestly i feel like Shield Bash as written is perfectly fine and quite clear as to what it does. It lets you use your shield as a weapon, substituting your damage step for your Shield Bash step, and do double duty a knockdown attack. You use it with any close combat attack talent that can be used while wielding a weapon. The errata that it's not compatible with Second Weapon, as well as the forthcoming errata that it is also not compatible with Second Attack, constitutes a change, not a clarification. Now i do think it's a good change, and i acknowledge it's what the designers intended all along, but it's still a change with respect to how it's actually written. You'll note that there was no confusion about Shield Bash prior to this new errata being put out, despite many people posting in the forums being in active games. People understood how it worked, until suddenly it worked differently.
Statistics:Posted by Lys — Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:45 am
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However, at this point, I'd have to say that this Talent is all kinds of in disarray.
Nothing that clarification can't fix, but it seems to really bleed out from its status as Damage Replacement, which is nice and clear from a game concept point of view. As you mentioned before, this is in some middle-ground between Attack and Damage Replacement.Given the brevity of the Talent text, might just be easier in the errata to just override the published material. The messiness of the Talent, though, requires a good chunk of clarification (IMHO). Here'd be my suggestion (and remember, this is just my suggestion, I am not stating it as fact):
* You (Mataxes) said that the tentative answer for Second Attack is "no, can't be used" but that it could change. I just drafted some (rather clunky) material that allows it. Easy enough to remove the Talent from the clarified list of allows Attacks and remove the clarification that applies to it - or replace it with an explanation as to why it isn't allowed, or just not explain it.Use the following text in place of the published material's Talent text: The adept bashes an opponent with their shield in an attempt to knock them off balance. The adept must first make a close combat melee Attack using the shield (during which the shield count as a weapon, not an improvised weapon). If the Attack is successful, the adept makes a Shield Bash test as the Damage test, with Physical Armor reducing the result. The target of the attack makes a Knockdown test (see p. 383) using the damage dealt as the Difficulty Number.
CLARIFICATION: Since it requires a melee attack using the shield, only the following Talents/Skills can be used for the Attack: Melee Weapon, Momentum Attack, Second Attack*.
CLARIFICATION: A shield is not a weapon, although most anything can be used during an Attack as an improvised weapon. The use of this Talent allows the shield to act as a weapon, not an improvised weapon, for the preceding Attack. Therefore, use of this Talent must be declared before the Attack, and the Talent must be used if the Attack is successful. Otherwise, the shield must be treated as an improvised weapon as usual (see p. 392).
CLARIFICATION: Per the "Talent Test" rules (see p. 120), this Talent can only be used once per turn (because it is not otherwise noted in the Talent text). If it is used during Melee Weapon, it cannot be used during Momentum Attack or Second Attack.
CLARIFICATION*: Per the "Talent Test" rules (see p. 120), this Talent can only be used once per turn (because it is not otherwise noted in the Talent text). Furthermore, it is this Talent that allows use of the shield as a weapon and not an improvised weapon during the attack. Therefore, if an adept wants to use the Shield Bash in conjunction with Second Attack, the shield must be used as the weapon in both Attacks, and whichever Attack does not use Shield Bash must treat the shield as an improvised weapon (see p. 392).
CLARIFICATION^: When a shield is equipped at the start of the round, the creature cannot use their off-hand for Attacks for the duration of the round. Therefore, Shield Bash cannot be used with Second Weapon by using the shield as the weapon for the Attack.
^ This is super my opinion. Just trying to make sense of the swapping stances. If this mechanic isn't desired, the first sentence, and the leading "Therefore" of the second can easily be removed for a simple statement.
Extra note: This is all assuming that there's a desire to treat the shield as a weapon for the attack rather than an improvised weapon. If this isn't desired, a number of these item go out the window, but a different, more brief, clarification is warranted. Here would be an alternate recommendation with that in mind:
Use the following text in place of the published material's Talent text: The adept bashes an opponent with their shield in an attempt to knock them off balance. The adept must first make a close combat melee Attack using the shield as an improvised weapon (see p. 392). If the Attack is successful, the adept may make a Shield Bash test as the Damage test, with Physical Armor reducing the result. The target of the attack makes a Knockdown test (see p. 383) using the damage dealt as the Difficulty Number.
CLARIFICATION: Since it requires a melee attack using the shield, only the following Talents/Skills can be used for the Attack: Melee Weapon, Momentum Attack, Second Attack*.
CLARIFICATION: Per the "Talent Test" rules (see p. 120), this Talent can only be used once per turn (because it is not otherwise noted in the Talent text). If it is used during Melee Weapon, it cannot be used during Momentum Attack or Second Attack.
CLARIFICATION^: When a shield is equipped at the start of the round, the creature cannot use their off-hand for Attacks for the duration of the round. Therefore, Shield Bash cannot be used with Second Weapon by using the shield as an improvised weapon for the Attack.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:02 am
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In the narrative of the game, the adept is totally attacking the target with his shield. Bashing them right in the face (or equivalent).
The adept uses Melee Weapon for the attack test, representing they are using a "weapon" (in this case the shield) to strike their target (as opposed to striking without a weapon, which would be Unarmed Combat). This can be done even if the adept otherwise isn't wielding a weapon (1-hand sword, axe, whatever).
(So, yes, an "unarmed" character with a shield can use Shield Bash -- but they still use Melee Weapon as the attack test, not unarmed.)
To put it another way, the Shield Bash talent defines the conditions under which a shield can be used as a "weapon". Outside of those conditions, a shield is not a weapon and not otherwise a valid target for things that affect weapons (like Forge Weapon, or Disarm). The character forgoes their "normal" attack, replacing the damage with the Shield Bash talent, and gain an automatic knockdown test on the target -- getting an advantage over the traditional "Attack to Knockdown" option, which doesn't normally do damage.
Is that any clearer? I misunderstood what you were getting at with your division between "weapon" and "vehicle for damage" thinking you were talking about weapons in the way they are handled as a game mechanic tag (which shields are not). I didn't think you were implying some kind of situation where the adept is attacking with their sword but somehow dealing damage with the shield (which is what I took from your most recent post).
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:09 am
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