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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:01 am
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun May 25, 2025 12:11 am
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Realistically, there are two reasons to increase a Skill or Talent: increasing dice pool for tests, and obtaining Rank-bounded perks. For the former, a test really needs to either be time-sensitive (e.g., combat-oriented) or sufficiently high failure penalty to justify Rank increase. Without one of these, time is on the Adept's side: they will eventually pull off the exploding dice to obtain the necessary result.
The latter is really the design space that encourages Rank increase, especially when those two test-oriented conditions don't exist (or aren't sufficiently strong). There are plenty of examples for this mechanics - Spliced Weave (can only perform as many tests as Rank), Summon (can control up to Rank SR), and here with Animal Training (number of tricks). If we ignore the lofty goals of High Circle, most tables will be lucky to see the end of Journeyman. That still leaves enough room that Rank 7-8 is still A Thing, and it really deserves to stand out from Rank 2-3.
With a profession-style approach, I could see a handler easily getting everything they'd need out of an animal with a few Ranks. That leads to disappointment if you're forced to invest in the Discipline: the only thing you can buy with those higher Ranks are essentially novelty professions.
Meanwhile, the "trick" based approach may feel punitive but still makes higher Rank feel rewarding. I'd argue that someone with Rank 1-2 in animal handling should not be able to train a mount to fight it's nature and run headlong into danger, as well as to not flee when it takes damage. Rank 1-2 is toe-in from an aptitude perspective.
I could see lots of ways to address this, but all of them feel over mechanized compared to simple "an ability is a trick." Really, I'd just boil it down to GM guidance: what is a wide enough space to categorize one or more things as a single "trick," and does it feel like the Rank is sufficient to achieve the complexity for training that "trick." As to riding, remember: it may seem like a simple thing to you, as a rider, but that creature likely has to overcome a significant instinctual desire not to have something on it's back, let alone let something tell it where to go (herding instinct is different that mounted control).
It's really not a vote thing.ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:27 pmSummarizing opinions given so far (as I understand them), most started out saying "I don't know, but my gut says..."
- Taming and/or Riding training takes one ATCS per rank in willful. Combat training takes another ATCS. One Vote
- Taming, Riding training, and combat training just take time, they do not take up ATCS. Two votes, plus my vote is 3 votes.
Besides, if you're keeping track, kinda important to note that that "one vote" you have noted is for Mataxes ...Anyways, after all that rambling, my opinion is that riding/trick/combat training all feel like too big a thing for "tricks." I'd actually make them Rank-bound. Something like "a mounted can be trained for riding at Rank 2, plus one Rank for each level of Willfullness." Then, stagger them up: maybe 1, 3, 5 (don't want to make combat training TOO hard to achieve, otherwise combat trained mounts would be few and far between). This ends the whole "how big of a trick is this" as it's really just a gated check mark. It also gives definite value to Rank advancement, as well as further gating "hard" creatures.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:30 am
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I had something written up at some point for an earlier edition, and I can't find it now. Basically animal training 'commands slots were changed to 'jobs', broad command categories. I'm running on long-term memory, but there was Companion, Guard, Scout, Mount, Combat, Hunt and Forage, Perform ... maybe a couple more. Companion was the basic training package - obedience school. Guard would protect and area or person until told otherwise, on its own auspices. Scout would range out and report back dangers or search for substances and geographical features that the animal could reasonably search for. Mount is riding training. Combat is Combat Training. Hunt and Forage is for falcons, hunting dogs, fishing bears, truffle pigs etc - it doesn't consume the food but brings it back. Perform is cute pet tricks. It's more flexible, I think.
Statistics:Posted by Slimcreeper — Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:12 pm
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I really like this, as it "upgrades" a trick, thus using the limited resource of "trick slots" in a very cool way."Training your animal yourself is simply a matter of time and attention. Domesticating a ride-trained animal is the same as teaching it a trick. Given the time to go over this again (a matter of days for Adepts) you can upgrade this single trick into Combat Trained. Combat Training supercedes Ride Training, but a mount must be Ride Trained to be Combat Trained. For mounts that have the Willful trait, you must spend additional trick slots to train them... Thus when you finally tackle a behemoth mount, you'll still only spend 3 tricks breaking the mount and teaching it to be Combat Trained. Horses take only 1 trick. Tigers take 2."
Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:20 pm
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As I see it, a potential mount could have several potential starting conditions.
- A tame domestic animal, such as a typical horse.
- An untamed member of a domesticated species. Such as a wild horse.
- A tamed member of a non-domesticated species. Such as a lion that has been trained from birth not to attack it's handlers.
- An untamed member of a non-domesticated species. Such as a wild lion.
- Untamed and untrained.
- Tamed, but untrained.
- Tamed and trained for Riding only.
- Tamed and trained for Riding and Combat.
By use of the Animal Bond and Animal Training talents or skills, animals can be tamed, trained for riding, and trained for combat. The rules as published are not explicit as to how this is done.
Taming a wild animal is basically teaching it not to attack it's handlers and other rules of good behavior. I assume this is done by mostly by Animal Bond, with assist from Animal Training. An animal that has been Bonded up to Friendly, should not attack the Adept. I would consider this to be partially tamed. I am not certain how much additional effort it takes to get them to not attack stable hands and grooms, but I would not consider an animal fully tamed until it did not do so.
My assumption is that "Taming" does not really need to be done for domesticated species born in captivity. They are tamed while being raised.
The value of animals that are often trained for riding that are not trained is 75% of the value of a trained mount. This could be used as a benchmark to say that raising an animal is 3 times more costly than training an animal for riding.
The value of animals that are usually not trained for combat but is, is 10 times the value of a mount that is trained for riding only. This could be used as a benchmark to say that combat training an animal is 10 times the effort of raising an animal and training it for riding. Thus training it for combat might be about 30 times harder than training it for riding.
A purchased animal is assumed to have been tamed and trained to it's normal level as a youth. Therefore most horses are bought tamed and trained for riding. Warhorses are bought tamed, trained for riding, and tamed for combat.
So the questions are:
- For a formerly wild animal, what amount of time and "Animal Training command slots" (ATCS) does it take to keep them from attacking the stable hands and grooms?
- For an animal that has never been trained for riding, how much time and ATCS does it take to train them for riding?
- For an animal that has been trained for riding, how much time and ATCS does it take to train them for combat?
Summarizing opinions given so far (as I understand them), most started out saying "I don't know, but my gut says..."
- Taming and/or Riding training takes one ATCS per rank in willful. Combat training takes another ATCS. One Vote
- Taming, Riding training, and combat training just take time, they do not take up ATCS. Two votes, plus my vote is 3 votes.
comments and questions?
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:27 pm
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Three Scenarios: (and what I think is correct for each of them).
(1) You jump upon the back of a random animal intelligence creature that is not actively hostile to you (or maybe it is just a pack mule that is not used to being ridden), and attempt to control it, A successful Trick Riding test (probably a new test every round) should convince it to move however you want. The target number might be higher if you want it to move towards combat. However it will move and act upon it's own initiative, and you will move upon your mounts initiative, but act upon your own initiative. You have no control over it's attacks or other actions. I would probably have you declare how you want it to move during the declare phase before initiative is rolled.
(2) You are upon a typical Riding Horse. It will spook easily, which may require a test of some sort to keep control if something loud or scary happens near it. Assuming you keep control, the mount will move where you want, except each round you want it to move closer to combat, you need to succeed in a trick riding test. However the riding trained mount will use your initiative, making it much easier to coordinate and control your combined actions. However you only control it's movements, you have no control over it's attacks.
(3) Absent any mind affecting magical effects such as dominate beast, your warhorse will always do what you want upon your initiative, you control it's movement, actions and attacks.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:24 pm
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I wouldn't have combat or riding training take up a trick - it doesn't now. I would say that yes, realistically raising it from young would make it easier to train because the young would have a lower social defense. I would say each attempt to train to ride would be 1 week plus 1 week per rank in Willful, and combat training would take 1 month plus 1 week per rank in Willful.
*and riding or combat training is permanent.
Statistics:Posted by Slimcreeper — Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:53 am
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Mataxes wrote: ↑
My off-the-cuff ruling would be it takes just one "trick" for a mount to be combat trained, with an additional one required for each rank of "Willful" the creature might have. This would explain the (monetary) value of the more powerful combat mounts (griffins, thundra beasts, etc), above and beyond their rarity -- it's much harder to train them for combat.
We'll have a look at this and see if we can come up with a more official answer.
Willful already causes it to require extra successes on the training tests. Causing it to require extra training tests, each requiring extra successes seems to be squaring the penalty, and causing it to reduce the number of other "tricks" that can be taught seems to be cubing the penalty. Simply saying you need two or three successes for it to learn anything seems to me to adequately account for the mounts willfulness without piling it on. Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:44 am
This is a very good question, and I don't have a ready answer. It's not something that has, to my knowledge (or research) been directly addressed in the game. And now that it's brought to my attention, kind of a big oversight.My off-the-cuff ruling would be it takes just one "trick" for a mount to be combat trained, with an additional one required for each rank of "Willful" the creature might have. This would explain the (monetary) value of the more powerful combat mounts (griffins, thundra beasts, etc), above and beyond their rarity -- it's much harder to train them for combat.
We'll have a look at this and see if we can come up with a more official answer.
If you are going to look into it and come up with an official answer, I would request that you think about several aspects. I think that the training of "Tricks" is more or less adequately covered in the book (though what one "Trick" can consist of is a little vague to me. "Scout ahead" seems to me to cover a whole lot more ground than "fetch").
One of the things to distinguish is the level of training being undertaken.
- Training a totally untrained animal to be a riding mount
- Training a trained riding mount to be combat trained
Another issue to consider is does the mounts starting condition matter at all? It seems to me that this could range anywhere from a young fully domesticated animal raised in captivity (such as a horse), through wild horses, through never fully domesticated animals such as dyre and at the far end of the spectrum you might have a fully adult creature that is not domesticated and can't be trained. For example the description of the Griffin specifically says it can't be trained as a mount unless captured young. And I assume that any creature that is not suitable to be an Animal Companion is not trainable at all So this aspect is Animal Bonds domain, but does it matter to Animal Training as to whether a species is considered domesticated or not? It seems to matter with Griffins..
Also, if you buy a horse, it is assumed to already be trained as a riding mount. This training will never go away and does not reduce the number of "Tricks" you can teach your mount. If you capture and train your own wild horse?
If you buy a Thundra Beast and pay the full 4,000 price, it is already combat trained and this would not seem to reduce the number of "Tricks" that you can teach it. If you raise a Thundra Beast from a ... colt? Hatchling? Anyway, you have invested a lot of time and saved a huge pile of money. How many command slots have you used up training it to be a mount and a combat mount?
Does this change if you came across a fully grown wild Thundra Beast?
I guess that maybe the idea I am groping towards (and this is something I had not even thought of yesterday) is that maybe teaching animals young, the training is permanent and does not use up a training slot but teaching adults does and only lasts Rank Months without renewal? This has the added bonus of keeping reasonable limits on Cavalrymen and Beastmasters animal schools. Cheaper in the long run to train them while they are young instead of having to send your cut-rate bargin warhorse back to school every 3 months.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:05 am
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Gressiar wrote: ↑ The only problem is that Snowflake couldn't join us in Kaer diving.
I am going with a Dwarf Cavalryman and my hope is that a Traojin (3 feet high at the shoulder) with a dwarf sitting on it will be will be considered an indoor combo. I mean yes it is long but the total height should still be less than that of a human, much less a Troll. And as a bonus it's climbing and stealthy stride steps are way higher than mine.Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:04 am
I played a Troll Cavalryman riding a Granlain named Snowflake, and our enemies cowered in fear when we charged. The only problem is that Snowflake couldn't join us in Kaer diving.Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:53 am
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Dougansf wrote: ↑
Not quite sure how someone else becomes familiar with one though.
As I see it, there are at least three levels of "Training". Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:04 pm
That's one big perk of having it trained. I presume this applies to combat training because otherwise you're just riding away on the mounts initiative.Mounted Combat Sequence PG Page 395" wrote:The rider and his mount each have their own actions. If trained, the mount acts on the rider’s Initiative. Untrained mounts act on their own Initiative, which makes combat difficult at best, impossible at worst, as the mount moves and acts independently from the rider.
It looks like Cavalrymen and Beastmasters don't need anything extra to ride into battle.Mounted Movement PG Page 398 wrote:Additionally, characters not familiar with their mounts must succeed at a Trick Riding test against the mount’s Social Defense to take their mounts into (but not away from) combat; Cavalrymen and Beastmasters are assumed to be familiar with their mounts at all times.
Not quite sure how someone else becomes familiar with one though.
There are definitely perks to being combat trained, but no clear way of how to get there.Mount Attacks PG Page 398 wrote:Combat-trained mounts may be directed by their rider to use their Standard action to make their own attacks, employing the Steps and abilities found in the creature’s description. Mounts not trained for combat may also make attacks, but these are not controlled by the rider, and the mount usually only attacks if threatened.
- Untrained to be a riding mount.
- Trained to be a riding mount, but not combat trained.
- Trained to be a riding mount, and combat trained.
I am fairly sure that your first quote above refers to the mount being trained for riding. If the mount is not trained for riding, it acts on it's own initiative and the rider will find it almost impossible to coordinate. If it is trained for riding, it acts upon it's riders initiative. I don't think this refers to combat training.
Second Quote:
I would assume that merely riding a mount for a few weeks would be enough to become "familiar with the mount".
Third Quote:
Thanks, I missed that one, and that does fully answer one of my questions. Non-combat trained mounts may or may not take their standard action to make an attack at the GM's discretion. Combat trained mounts make the specific attacks their rider directs. This is the big perk of combat training your mount. I am not 100% certain it is all that important to get access to your typical ponies kick and trample attacks, but yes, you definitely want your thundra beast combat trained.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:10 am
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I played a Troll Cavalryman riding a Granlain named Snowflake, and our enemies cowered in fear when we charged.
The only problem is that Snowflake couldn't join us in Kaer diving.Statistics:Posted by Gressiar — Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:04 am
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My off-the-cuff ruling would be it takes just one "trick" for a mount to be combat trained, with an additional one required for each rank of "Willful" the creature might have. This would explain the (monetary) value of the more powerful combat mounts (griffins, thundra beasts, etc), above and beyond their rarity -- it's much harder to train them for combat.
We'll have a look at this and see if we can come up with a more official answer.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:44 am
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Found some clarifications though.
That's one big perk of having it trained. I presume this applies to combat training because otherwise you're just riding away on the mounts initiative.Mounted Combat Sequence PG Page 395" wrote:The rider and his mount each have their own actions. If trained, the mount acts on the rider’s Initiative. Untrained mounts act on their own Initiative, which makes combat difficult at best, impossible at worst, as the mount moves and acts independently from the rider.
It looks like Cavalrymen and Beastmasters don't need anything extra to ride into battle.Mounted Movement PG Page 398 wrote:Additionally, characters not familiar with their mounts must succeed at a Trick Riding test against the mount’s Social Defense to take their mounts into (but not away from) combat; Cavalrymen and Beastmasters are assumed to be familiar with their mounts at all times.
Not quite sure how someone else becomes familiar with one though.
There are definitely perks to being combat trained, but no clear way of how to get there.Mount Attacks PG Page 398 wrote:Combat-trained mounts may be directed by their rider to use their Standard action to make their own attacks, employing the Steps and abilities found in the creature’s description. Mounts not trained for combat may also make attacks, but these are not controlled by the rider, and the mount usually only attacks if threatened.
Statistics:Posted by Dougansf — Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:04 pm
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