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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Tue Jun 03, 2025 9:34 am
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun May 25, 2025 8:59 am
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Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:01 am
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So, do we have updated stats for things like the Horror-scarred Madman, Ork Mercenary, Troll City Watch, etc, for 4th Edition? I wanted to get a sense of how those "mundane" challenges line up to Adepts, etc.
Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:09 am
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Slimcreeper wrote:There don't seem to be as many little fiddly rule differences between skills and talents of the same name as I remember, though, which was one of the reasons behind this optional rule.
That's intentional. I wasn't particularly fond of them, as I felt that in most cases they didn't add anything but complexity -- and I was trying to rein that in with ED4. The 'return' on that complexity just wasn't worth it.The focus of the game is on adepts and their magic. The skill system doesn't need to be exhaustive and detailed because it's not going to see the amount of gameplay focus that talents are.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:54 am
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I do like the way the option makes a really sharp line between magical & non-magical in a player's mind. There don't seem to be as many little fiddly rule differences between skills and talents of the same name as I remember, though, which was one of the reasons behind this optional rule.
Statistics:Posted by Slimcreeper — Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:04 pm
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I only wish it had been around back in the 90s when I was doing my (First Edition) Step System analysis. Would have saved me a lot of time.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:13 am
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To provide an example, let's take a Step 6 Attribute and Rank 4 skill.
If you compare the two methods (Step 10 vs Step 6 +4), you end up with this:
http://anydice.com/program/9f83
(You can get a good graph if you select "graph" and "at least" on the tabs above the results.)
So there isn't a lot of difference. The "add skill rank" method is slightly better than the old method for lower DNs (about 3% on average, eyeballing the numbers from the table -- although there are certain DNs the new method cannot fail against that the original can). But once you get to DN 12, the edge shifts over to the traditional Step, where it has a notable advantage until you get to DN 22 or so (at which point you're looking at multiple bonus dice and the differences are largely statistical noise).
(If you're looking at the graph I pointed you to, the one higher up on the vertical is the better chance of success. The larger the gap, the bigger the difference.)
If we bump up to Rank 8 skill (same Attribute), we get Step 14 vs Step 6 +8: http://anydice.com/program/9f84
The differences start getting more significant. Again, lower DNs give the edge to the 'new' method, but once it shifts over the traditional method gives a bigger advantage. Also note the shape of the curves -- the traditional is a lot smoother, while the new method is more dramatic.
I don't really see that a "skills as straight bonus" method provides enough of an distinction to make it worthwhile. I think there are enough differences between skills and talents as it is (training time, karma spending, max rank, among others) that distinct resolution mechanics are needed for them.
(You also potentially get into the problems you have with single die + modifier systems -- like d20. That is, within certain ranges they work pretty well, but outside of that they are either very 'swingy', or the modifier dominates the result so much the die becomes insignificant. And outside of the Step 8 Attribute prodigies, most skilled folks will be using single dice. Having smaller die types and exploding results mitigates this somewhat, but... again, I don't see enough statistical difference to make it worthwhile.)
(But... well... you do you. At that point you're kind of straying into Savage Worlds territory, mechanics-wise. Not a bad system, but not necessarily suited to the kind of epic, high-magic fantasy that characterizes Earthdawn.)
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:09 am
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*(Experience with a player who is slightly dyslexic with numbers, and could easily handle [DicePool]+/-[Mod] for her abilities with rapidly changing modifiers, but got lost when asked to jump up and down the step chart multiple times in combat for multiple abilities as Wounds and other modifiers from spells, etc, etc happen.)
I do like playing with the mechanical distinction between the two methods though. Hmmmm... I'm going to run some numbers and Steps through AnyDice.com. I have a program that has stored all the Step Die combinations as shortcuts, but so far it only runs one step against a series of difficulty numbers: http://anydice.com/program/9f80
Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:30 am
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He'd be a very skilled non-Adept angry with the group (perhaps because they displaced his role in a town or humiliated him), so he collects a group of similarly highly skilled non-Adepts to fight them.
Perhaps this group starts off doing good things to prove you don't need magic, but then they go off the rails when trying to sabotage the characters. Start doing some bad things, perhaps led astray by another, even a Horror.
Eventually raw skill can't keep up with magic and he fails, preferably in some tragic way that the players mourn.
Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:38 pm
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Slimcreeper wrote:Well, the idea is that otherwise the skill and talent would be identical. Whatever the rules are for the talent apply to the skill. I haven't gone through each skill yet to weigh each one, though. At low ranks, the skill may even be better - more reliable.
I just don't see why they shouldn't be identical. Mostly, as there are already differences.Mechanical differences:
Skills can be used in non-magic areas
Skills have a hard cap of 10, Talents haver a soft cap of 15 (that is, magic can raise them above 15)
Skills take a week per rank to level and cold hard cash, Talents take 8 hours flat
Skills require a long period between leveling, Talents only a day (actually 16ish hours)
Fluff differences
Magic could be mistrusted, so skills might be looked on more favorably
Talents can have a flair to them, and often allow for "impossible" things (like picking a lock without tools) that skills can't do
I'm sure there are other fluff differences
Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:31 pm
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Statistics:Posted by Bogie — Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:13 pm
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Which is why it takes weeks to months to level a skill where a Talent is increased immediately (relatively speaking).
The result is that they are equally capable for different reasons. Why handicap the skill (even if ever-so-slightly)? Why increase bookkeeping and discourage skill acquisition (again, even if ever-so-slightly)?
Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:45 pm
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