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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:14 pm
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sat May 24, 2025 10:24 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
Also per The Adept's Way/ED3PC, some Elementalists specialize in one Element above and beyond the others.Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:29 pm
Per all previous companions, Elemental balance is a key belief. Discipline talents are meant to reflect these types of things. So this is more than a "most do," especially since NOT doing it can result in Talent Crisis.Statistics:Posted by etherial — Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:17 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
I'm just going to stop right there, because we are obviously playing this game in very different ways.Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:29 pm
"Being prepared and knowing your opposition" aren't key to ED.Statistics:Posted by Dougansf — Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:12 am
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Now that you've seen everything that the current High-Circles have to offer, has that changed any of your thoughts on individual Discipline stuff?
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:23 am
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Dougansf wrote: ↑
"Being prepared and knowing your opposition" aren't key to ED. ED is not a heist game, and some Adepts can go their entire lives without combat. Temper Flesh, for example, is just something you do because you can. There's no good reason not to except the inherent risk and unless maybe you're going to a ball and don't want to look weird. Any Adept that has it and achieved Rank where there's little chance of failure is probably just going to do this every morning - just like any adepts that start bumping into double digit Wood/Earth Skin Rank are probably just going to do this every morning.Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:31 pm
Unless you're willing to change the activation time of some Weaponsmith talents as well (I'm sure there are other Disciplines, but Temper Flesh comes to mind first). Talents like these reinforce the benefits of being prepared and knowing your opposition, which IMO are key to Earthdawn.As to the time thing, you're forgetting two core things. First, summoning was always a Standard Action until ED4. This is pretty much the antithesis of the idea that "being prepared and knowing your opposition ... are key." It's positioned as being reactive with that Action speed. Going from one round to 30 minute ritual is huge and entirely changes the intent and usefulness of the ability. Second, a change here does not require changes elsewhere. Again, going back to Temper Flesh, this was always a Sustained Action, and I believe (would have to check) a lengthy one.
Hardiness: Wood Skin (1), Earth Skin (7), Vine Armor (11), Stone Skin (14)
These exist only to make the Adept more resilient. I chose "Hardy" as I believe that is the word panda used.
Again, the "keep them alive long enough to keep the party alive" concept doesn't float. First, Elementalists are not combat magicians (per panda), so taking a big chunk of damage in combat for any reason is not core to the Discipline, and Discipline Talents exist to represent the core elements of the Discipline. Second, Elementalists also aren't healers - they can heal, but Cold Purify was expressly removed from the Discipline Talent path because not all Elementalists want/need to be "the healer." I recommend going back and reading my post that preceded yours where I ask "why are they hardy?"
Spells are a key feature, it's not a magician's sole reason for being. If that were the case, all the other Talents that do other things (Frighten, Research, First Impression, etc) don't make sense as Discipline Talents. But they are there. And the fact that Elementalists are the only magician without them is kind of the point here. Even Wziards, who are pretty much "magic or bust," mainline a number of other Talents unrelated to spellcasting.Dougansf wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:31 pmI don't see this as a problem. They're a Magician, casting spells is the job.
With the exception that it left out some cool design space like used with Frighten for Nethermancers and Astral Sight for Wizards, where spells improve the talent.
But in combat, I'd rather cast Spirit Dart every round than use Frighten.
Also, returning back to the point of made a few times about current magicians not being combatants: current magicians are supposed to be primarily focused outside of combat. So, focusing on the combat situation is really somewhat beside the point. I've mentioned Frighten a few times, and you're right, it's not a great example due to its heavy combat focus. Regardless, though, even if you would rather cast a spell than use Frighten, others may love it and invest heavily in its use (there are lots of spells to help this). Even aside from whether you'd like to debate if Spellcasting or Frighten is a better use of one's time, my point about it's presence is still valid - we can have that debate because it exists, because Nethermancers have another Standard Action they can do.
What about "spell selection"? An Adept's personal selection? I find it very hard to believe any PC, or even NPC, goes out of their way right now to ensure a balanced selection, and I don't see how an individual's selection demonstrates balance unless they chose it to be so. Discipline Spell LIST? If that, how so? Because they all have an elemental keyword? That's not balance, that's a mechanic that could support balance. Equal Elemental representation? I'd have to do the math, but I doubt it's spot on as a whole, and very likely not at a per-Circle basis.
Per all previous companions, Elemental balance is a key belief. Discipline talents are meant to reflect these types of things. So this is more than a "most do," especially since NOT doing it can result in Talent Crisis.
Your point about "some don't" is almost entirely irrelevant. "Some" Elementalists never really go outside and spend all their time researching - should all the hardiness Talents be thrown out because "some" don't need it? "Some" Elementalists will never see combat or danger - should Fire Heal be thrown out because "some" don't need it? "Some" Elementalists may never have a desire to commune with the spirits, let alone summon them - should Summoning and Elemental Tongues be thrown out because "some" don't need it? The answer to all of these is "no, these are core to the Discipline, even if some deviate."
The only other way I can really slant this perspective is that it is a dead spot for Elementalists that don't strive for balance (*especially* for those rogue Elementalists that devote themselves to a single element - BLASPHEMY!!@! *but it is a thing*). I don't see that as a problem. All the hardiness Talents are equally "dead spots" for many Elementalists that have a solid melee companion or two (I'm Circle 5, approaching Circle 6, and have been playing this character for about two years now. Guess how many times I've used Wood Skin. That answer: 0). Someone else (etherial, I think) noted that despite having both summoner Disciplines in his party, they rarely summoned throughout the entirety of Circle 1 - ~10, which makes Summoning (and likely Elemental Tongues) a "dead spot" for them.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:29 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
----- Summoning -----
It was too powerful. Now it feels too weak. Primary problem: 30 minute time is too long to impact current situations. Secondary problem: Aid/Enhance Summoner too weak (especially got time investment).
Recommendation: Fragment summoning in two.
1) Ritual format: Same as current, except faster (5 or 10 minute). This allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold door for 5-10 minutes, not 30.
2) Express format: Doable in long combat, 5-10 rounds (30-60 seconds). Duration changes to rounds (+2 per extra success). If necessary, eliminate access to Aid/Enhance. Again, this allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold off heat long enough for much needed support.
As a fellow Elementalist lover, I find this irresistible.Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am
My thoughts on Elementalist:----- Summoning -----
It was too powerful. Now it feels too weak. Primary problem: 30 minute time is too long to impact current situations. Secondary problem: Aid/Enhance Summoner too weak (especially got time investment).
Recommendation: Fragment summoning in two.
1) Ritual format: Same as current, except faster (5 or 10 minute). This allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold door for 5-10 minutes, not 30.
2) Express format: Doable in long combat, 5-10 rounds (30-60 seconds). Duration changes to rounds (+2 per extra success). If necessary, eliminate access to Aid/Enhance. Again, this allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold off heat long enough for much needed support.
I think a simpler change would be changing the duration to Rank Hours instead of based upon successes.
Unless you're willing to change the activation time of some Weaponsmith talents as well (I'm sure there are other Disciplines, but Temper Flesh comes to mind first). Talents like these reinforce the benefits of being prepared and knowing your opposition, which IMO are key to Earthdawn.
How are you defining "hardiness"?The Undying wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am----- Hardiness -----
Elementalist have 4, arguably 5 (Elemental Walk), Talents that just buff their hardiness. I like this, but there's a "so what" missing, especially given the focus this theme receives.
Recommendation: Add a Talent that does something to make all this hardiness useful. I don't have a specific recommendation yet.
Which talents are you talking about? Wood Skin? Fire Heal? Earth Skin? Fireblood?
Fire Heal is certainly key to their role as healer (Grove Renewal FTW!), and the rest keep them alive long enough to keep the party alive.
I don't see this as a problem. They're a Magician, casting spells is the job.The Undying wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am----- Standard Action Talent -----
Right now, Elementalists feel like it's "cast spell" or "do nothing." They are lacking a Talent that they can use to impact the world or change the situation. Example is found in Nethermancer's Fright - it's flavorful, it's inline with the Discipline, and it's generally useful often (more so in combat than out).
With the exception that it left out some cool design space like used with Frighten for Nethermancers and Astral Sight for Wizards, where spells improve the talent.
But in combat, I'd rather cast Spirit Dart every round than use Frighten.
I'll grant you that Earth and Fire are certainly predominant in Talents, with a few from Air, Wood, and maybe 1 Water.The Undying wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am----- Air and Water Discipline Talents -----
Elementalists strive for balance among the elements. So, it stands out that there are multiple Earth/Wood while Air/Water are absent (from a Discipline Talent perspective). These are available as Talent Options, but none of them are Good Enough to be Discipline Talents. Mostly a flavor conflict.
Recommendation: Nothing necessary; it would just be nice to see Air and Water represented as Discipline Talents. That being said, none of the existing Talent Options are strong enough for this role (in my option).
And spell selection...The Undying wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am----- Elemental Rotation -----
Elementalists strive for balance among the elements. This is just never represented, other than the concept of Discipline Crisis.
Most do strive for balance, some don't. I see this as RP-only territory.The Undying wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 amRecommendation: (Ignoring the how) Add a carrot that encourages elemental rotation (at Talent level if applicable, definitely at spell level). I have a number of ideas here. I'll touch on the one that I think is most promising but likely least popular:
1) Replace the guts of "Elemental Mastery" with something that steadily builds bonuses as the Adept rotates through elements. Current Talent is incredibly strong but overly passive (but can't overly comment given I neither have the text nor the prominently-featured knacks Panda speaks to). This new Talent can be less strong but still great (bonus applies to both Threadweaving & Spellcasting maybe) but is actively used and changes play, which is fun. I can provide more details if desired.
The problem with this is that you're creating a mechanical benefit to enforce a characters personal vision of how the discipline works.
I think this is a great power. You merge your spirit with an Element (not an Elemental) and get a lot of benefits to casting spells.The Undying wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am----- 13th Circle feature -----
I love the feel of this. It feels weird that it shows up this late. It also feels weird that a Fire Elemental provides the same generic bonuses to the summoner as a Water Elemental.
Recommendation:
1) Take the flavor of this and move it to elemental spirits. Veering slightly into mechanics, this could be broken into two layers: (a) new ability beside Aid/Enhance that gives better persistent bonus for same Element with an equal penalty for opposing element, (b) another new additional ability available to stronger spirits that does the same as earlier BUT ALSO does the free thread and cannot cast spells of opposing.
2) Create a new 13th Circle feature.
I think the generic bonuses are a means to keep it simple, and not show preference to any element.
Statistics:Posted by Dougansf — Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:31 pm
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Thanks for all your hard word. ED4 is a great product, it made some great changes. Like all of us, it's not perfect, but that's ok. I think all of us just want it to be the best it can be. At the end of the day, some differences just come down to conflicts of preference and vision, and it is what it is. The best that can be made from that is for us (community) to try to respectfully, productively, and briefly present our opinions to you, the dev team, for consideration. I'm sure I can do a better job on the productive and brief part, but hopefully I've never been disrespectful (I know I've said a few times things like "this was a bad decision," and that may seem like a pointed jab, but it was never meant as "this was a bad decision, Mataxes is a horrible person, who put that moron in charge"
).Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:46 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
It wasn't. I was rambling in circles about... not being perfect, doing the best we can, that sort of stuff.Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am
This could be read different ways. Please feel free to drop me a PM if the deleted content was mainly aimed at me. Don't worry about polish or bluntness, and if there's something I can do more of or less of, I'd rather hear it and try to apply it.
I was tired, and wandering away from the point.
I don't have time to look at your posts in depth at the moment (off to the day gig in half an hour), and I can't promise a direct, or in-depth response when I do. I will look at them, though.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:02 pm
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Also, why does 'hardiness' feel unfulfilling right now? It's like someone addressing an "I fall down a lot problem" with "eh, it doesn't bother me so much anymore" versus "so I learned some acrobatics to improve my balance." --WHY-- is an Elementalist more hardy then other magicians?
> So he can withstand more abuse? Eh, probably not, that's fighter territory. Even if so, probably don't need multiple rounds of it across multiple Talents.
> Because he tends to get exposed to the harshness of the elements more often? There's probably a better, more succinct, more flavorful way to address than then an all-purpose hardiness buff over multiple Talents.
> Because he risks encounters with wild animals and spirits? Well, the Discipline somehow doesn't place fighting as even an Option in these cases, and "I'll get bitten a lot but make it out ok" doesn't seem like a good strategy, so we're back to the idea that there are probably better, more succinct, more flavorful ways to address this.
> So I can stand beside my friends in battle? Mmmm, current Option Talents and Spells don't reflect this particularly well, but again, probably better, more succinct, more flavorful ways to address this.
At the heart of the "hardiness" problem, though, is that it seems like a more simple answer would be "bump to Durability 5 like his Scout friend." If the "why" behind an Elementalist's hardiness is the primarily rigors of travel in the wild, that seems to overlap almost entirely with Scout, but the answer for Scout is "durability 5" while the answer for Elementalists is "lots of hardiness Talents." For perspective, Elementalists have more "hardiness" focused Talents than most front-liners and basically as many as a Warrior (most of them exactly the same). It appears misplaced without a strong "so what."
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:23 am
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This could be read different ways. Please feel free to drop me a PM if the deleted content was mainly aimed at me. Don't worry about polish or bluntness, and if there's something I can do more of or less of, I'd rather hear it and try to apply it.
That aside, I'm assuming this is a "don't give me problems, give me solutions" kind of thing (in the ... less colorful ... words of my old O-6).
Preface to the remainder of this post: These are all my opinions. If I slip up and it sounds like I'm trying to couch something as fact, that's not the case. E.g., "This is broke" is really "(I feel like) this is broke."
My thoughts on Elementalist:
----- Summary -----
> Summoning could be strengthened
> Something could bring the 'hardiness' concept forward
> The Discipline would benefit from a highly useful Standard Action Talent
> Air and Water Discipline Talents would be nice
> Carrot for elemental rotation would be nice
> 13th Circle feature could be better as a spirit ability
> Circles 8 & 9
> Mystic Defense Conundrum
----- Summoning -----
It was too powerful. Now it feels too weak. Primary problem: 30 minute time is too long to impact current situations. Secondary problem: Aid/Enhance Summoner too weak (especially got time investment).
Recommendation: Fragment summoning in two.
1) Ritual format: Same as current, except faster (5 or 10 minute). This allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold door for 5-10 minutes, not 30.
2) Express format: Doable in long combat, 5-10 rounds (30-60 seconds). Duration changes to rounds (+2 per extra success). If necessary, eliminate access to Aid/Enhance. Again, this allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold off heat long enough for much needed support.
----- Hardiness -----
Elementalist have 4, arguably 5 (Elemental Walk), Talents that just buff their hardiness. I like this, but there's a "so what" missing, especially given the focus this theme receives.
Recommendation: Add a Talent that does something to make all this hardiness useful. I don't have a specific recommendation yet.
----- Standard Action Talent -----
Right now, Elementalists feel like it's "cast spell" or "do nothing." They are lacking a Talent that they can use to impact the world or change the situation. Example is found in Nethermancer's Fright - it's flavorful, it's inline with the Discipline, and it's generally useful often (more so in combat than out).
Recommendation: Add a Standard Action Talent that does something that is regularly useful. I don't have a specific recommendation yet.
- Could play up their role as buff, debuff, or area control/denial.
- Could play up their improved hardiness over other magicians.
- Should be unique from current spell space/effects (or good enough to warrant existence as a Talent even if something comparable exists as a spell).
- Veering into mechanics, it would be neat if this were similar to the 5-Elements-in-one-thing concept introduced for spells. An interesting base general-purpose ability with a series of Knacks that add the Element-specific things would be cool.
----- Air and Water Discipline Talents -----
Elementalists strive for balance among the elements. So, it stands out that there are multiple Earth/Wood while Air/Water are absent (from a Discipline Talent perspective). These are available as Talent Options, but none of them are Good Enough to be Discipline Talents. Mostly a flavor conflict.
Recommendation: Nothing necessary; it would just be nice to see Air and Water represented as Discipline Talents. That being said, none of the existing Talent Options are strong enough for this role (in my option).
----- Elemental Rotation -----
Elementalists strive for balance among the elements. This is just never represented, other than the concept of Discipline Crisis.
Recommendation: (Ignoring the how) Add a carrot that encourages elemental rotation (at Talent level if applicable, definitely at spell level). I have a number of ideas here. I'll touch on the one that I think is most promising but likely least popular:
1) Replace the guts of "Elemental Mastery" with something that steadily builds bonuses as the Adept rotates through elements. Current Talent is incredibly strong but overly passive (but can't overly comment given I neither have the text nor the prominently-featured knacks Panda speaks to). This new Talent can be less strong but still great (bonus applies to both Threadweaving & Spellcasting maybe) but is actively used and changes play, which is fun. I can provide more details if desired.
----- 13th Circle feature -----
I love the feel of this. It feels weird that it shows up this late. It also feels weird that a Fire Elemental provides the same generic bonuses to the summoner as a Water Elemental.
Recommendation:
1) Take the flavor of this and move it to elemental spirits. Veering slightly into mechanics, this could be broken into two layers: (a) new ability beside Aid/Enhance that gives better persistent bonus for same Element with an equal penalty for opposing element, (b) another new additional ability available to stronger spirits that does the same as earlier BUT ALSO does the free thread and cannot cast spells of opposing.
2) Create a new 13th Circle feature.
----- Circles 8 & 9 -----
This is purely mechanical / system. I know you wanted to ignore it, but I felt it was important to include it.
I mentioned previously that the 8th & 9th Circle Talents are currently problematic (for me). I also mention that the Discipline could benefit from one or more generally useful and impactful Standard Action Talents (one that adds the "so what" to the hardiness aspect). I'd consider these the place to put them. 9th Circle is still "in play" in the sense that the material that defines it has yet to be published. 8th Circle is technically NOT "in play" since its progression is already published. Given the lack of adventure material for ED4, though, I would personally say the Discipline (and all other magicians) would be in a better place if this Talent was bumped out at the appropriate Circle and replaced with something else.
----- Mystic Defense Conundrum -----
Another purely mechanical / system. Elementalists can develop one of the best Mystic Defenses. Currently, this also hampers or prevents a variety of their stuff (spells, some Talents, some spirit abilities). Without diving into specifics, something to adjust for this would make a significant improvement.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am
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I could literally weep right now ...
*sigh*
I'll have to try to replicate it tonight ...
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:07 am
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What do you think is missing from Elementalists (in particular)? is there something that was part of their kit before that you think isn't now? Something they still have but has been sidelined/gutted/nerfed? Something they've never had but (in your opinion) should?
Because... look... I understand love for this game as much as anybody. I can also recognize that there are many different (sometimes wildly different) approaches, assumptions, and suchlike to the game. (I mean, hell, there's the completely new-to-me interpretation of Item History in relation to thread ranks I encountered a few weeks back as an example.)
So... I'm going to avoid the long thing I just typed and deleted because it derails. I'll just wrap up with this:
I will take the feedback in the spirit it is offered, as long as that spirit is returned in kind.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:26 am
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