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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun Jun 01, 2025 5:51 am
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Fri May 23, 2025 8:23 am
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For what it's worth, there is still time to alter summoning time RAW. Knacks could be published in the Companion that reduce the summoning time probably in exchange for reduce service time (although I still think there's room to reduce a THIRTY MINUTE ritual without eroding service time). It's unfortunate that summoners would have to purchase knacks, but ce la vie.
However, barring a "we changed our minds" section in the Companion, the enhance/aid are what they are. (30 minute ritual for A CHANCE to summon a spirit for A CHANCE to negotiate for A CHANCE at a 1 time boost on the order of a Desperate charm? Three chances at failure should net a lot more than that, even without the 30 minute lead time).
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:53 pm
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Now, on the Threadweaving Tax ...
Seriously, you're right - this topic is talked to death, it is what it is, and honestly, while Spliced Weave shows up pretty late, I think it's all in a relatively healthy place. I wasn't trying to rehash it here. That being said, I do think it's worthwhile to note in an "EDC vs ED4" thread. It's not like all spells have suddenly become Thread 0 or 1, so all the old "do I Threadweave a spell or cast something fast" still exist, but ED4 adds the elment of "do I take extra turn(s) Threadweaving this spell."
Anyways ...
On the spell stuff? Yes, more spells will come out. This will get rectified. In a few years. So, in an "EDC vs ED4" context, that's a problem right now.
And on the Summoning stuff? Yes, Summoning was too powerful. Like crazy, whackadoo, "I can pull meteors out of the sky on a whim" powerful. But you yourself say that the 30 minute ritual is too much (or, at least, that's how I'm reading your "not very pleased" statement), which supports the idea that the pendulum swung a bit too far.
By the by, I also don't want to sound overly negative about ED4. My post was specific about magic. I like the FUN element of extra threads (it's just unfortunate it's less likely to get used). There's also a WORLD of great non-magic stuff that ED4 brought. Ditching armor defeating hits I think is a reason in and of itself to move to ED4.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:34 am
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Sorry if I sounded too harsh. Wasn't meant to be
Statistics:Posted by Kosmit — Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:19 am
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Kosmit wrote: ↑
Wow, man. You really need to relax. Feel free to look through my posts, I talk about plenty beyond the threadweaving tax. Extra threads are also 100% a new thing in ED4, so I think it's pretty relevant in a "EDC vs ED4" thread.Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:10 am
1. Seriously, I'm starting to think that it's the only thing you can talk about. Threadweaving tax, threadweaving tax and threadweaving tax. It's part of being magician since the beggining of ED and it's just the way it is. If it bothers you - just cut the threadweaving out of your game - make spellcasting longer without additional tests. Or merge spellcasting and threadweaving into one talent.Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:13 am
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The Undying wrote: ↑
- the extra Thread mechanic managed to create something neat and fun (spell customization) while compounding the least fun part of being a magician (Threadweaving)
- the loss of spell head count and the over focus on combat spells make the Disciplines feel weaker (to me) out of combat, where they supposed to have good and interesting impact (Illusionist are in the best shape here)
- the changes to summoning feel way overly punitive: 30 minute ritual makes it Difficult to do when you need it and burdensome on your companions; many/most activities will complete in far under an hour, let alone multiple hours; summoner mystic defense matches or outpaces spirit ability Step for aid/enhance, making these risky for even the minimal benefits they provide. Basically, it feels like trying to cull back an overly hot fire (summoning was whackadoo before ED4), they just extinguished the fire, leaving us with the mostly dead embers.
1. Seriously, I'm starting to think that it's the only thing you can talk about. Threadweaving tax, threadweaving tax and threadweaving tax. It's part of being magician since the beggining of ED and it's just the way it is. If it bothers you - just cut the threadweaving out of your game - make spellcasting longer without additional tests. Or merge spellcasting and threadweaving into one talent.Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:14 pm
It's interesting that you note your involvement in the earlier editions being focused on magics. Honestly, I'd say the core magician Disciplines are actually one of the least healthy parts of ED4.- the extra Thread mechanic managed to create something neat and fun (spell customization) while compounding the least fun part of being a magician (Threadweaving)
- the loss of spell head count and the over focus on combat spells make the Disciplines feel weaker (to me) out of combat, where they supposed to have good and interesting impact (Illusionist are in the best shape here)
- the changes to summoning feel way overly punitive: 30 minute ritual makes it Difficult to do when you need it and burdensome on your companions; many/most activities will complete in far under an hour, let alone multiple hours; summoner mystic defense matches or outpaces spirit ability Step for aid/enhance, making these risky for even the minimal benefits they provide. Basically, it feels like trying to cull back an overly hot fire (summoning was whackadoo before ED4), they just extinguished the fire, leaving us with the mostly dead embers.
2. More spells will eventually come out. Out of combat utility spells can be put under Half Magic until more come out.
3. Because Summoning was way to powerful. I am not very pleased with 30 minutes ritual (More of a fan for Rating rounds but... I can always changed that).
Statistics:Posted by Kosmit — Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:10 am
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- the extra Thread mechanic managed to create something neat and fun (spell customization) while compounding the least fun part of being a magician (Threadweaving)
- the loss of spell head count and the over focus on combat spells make the Disciplines feel weaker (to me) out of combat, where they supposed to have good and interesting impact (Illusionist are in the best shape here)
- the latter point about magicians currently feeling less impactful out of combat in ED4 is compounded by the 'rebalance' of combat damage really being the place of close combatants first, range combatants second, and magicians third. Most of the magician spells are combat SHAPING now, which is nice, but they're no longer designed to often shine in combat, so loss of solid ability to shine outside of combat via spells is disappointing
- Hold Thread. Seems like the forum community cannot figure out how this is any good, let alone good enough to saddle everyone with it
- the changes to summoning feel way overly punitive. It feels like, while trying to cull back an overly hot fire (summoning was whackadoo before ED4), they instead extinguished the fire, leaving us with the mostly dead embers.
- 30 minute ritual makes it Difficult to do when you need it and burdensome on your companions regardless of when it's done (heaven forbid you want to do it multiple times in a day)
- many/most activities will complete in far under an hour, let alone multiple hours
- summoner mystic defense matches or outpaces spirit ability Step for aid/enhance (especially Elementalists), making these risky for even the minimal benefits they provide.
- Half an hour ritual for the chance at a single use of Enhance is just painful; half an hour ritual for the chance at a +1 for 1 Strain ... the versatility is powerful, but I'd rather see a halfway point between Enhance and Aid (like, a third ability where the Adept picks ONE talent, that's the only one empowered, it's +2/success instead of +1 ... after all, they'll be lucky to get the single success, let alone multiple).
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:14 pm
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Ethereial gave the timeline. I was a fan from the first days, and pretty heavily involved in online fandom for ED1 in the late 90s. I was a playtester/consultant for ED2. I wasn't happy with some of the decisions that came out of Living Room Games (LRG) -- and I wasn't the only one. This became especially troublesome as the later books came out; there were setting decisions made that just... didn't work. Ideas that, if you think them through, require radical changes to the underlying assumptions of the setting.
RedBrick came along in that latter period with the idea of getting back to the original roots. The print editions of ED1 were becoming hard to come by, and print-on-demand tech was just starting to blossom. So, take the material from the original edition, compile it for ease of reference, and release as POD. All player material in one (massive) book. All GM material in another (massive) book. All the core talents. Spells. Knacks. Gear. Creatures. This was dubbed "Earthdawn Classic" as it wasn't (intended to be) a new edition, but was going back to the 'classic' game under FASA.
I came on board as a contributing editor, mainly because I wanted to tackle a re-organization (rewrite) of the magic chapters, especially pattern theory to try and make it clearer (as I found it was a common stumbling block for new players, and I felt that misunderstanding lay beneath some of the issues with ED2). In the course of that we looked at incorporating some fixes and tweaks to rules known to have issues in ED1 (Taunt, for example).
It ended up being more of a new edition than I think was originally intended, but a separate 'branch' from ED2. After LRG shuttered, and the problems with the print-on-demand started to make themselves known (especially shipping costs), RedBrick struck a deal with Mongoose to actually have print books in stock and have them in the distribution network (this was under Mongoose's "Flaming Cobra" imprint). That led to ED3, which broke the two compendia into four books; two player and two GM. It also first incorporated the more relaxed version of Discipline progression (tested out as an optional rule in EDC) with optional talent selection at each Circle.
ED3 was... troubled. The books put out were gorgeous, but there was (once again) a lot of reprinted material, which started upsetting some long-term hardcore fans. RedBrick grabbed some other licenses (Fading Suns, Blue Planet), which didn't end up seeing much of anything new come out for them. There was a devastating personal event for James, the guy at the helm (the murder-suicide of his wife and young son). The others involved (especially Carsten Damm) did the best they could to hold things together and keep the ship moving forward. But a lot of bad blood came out of the whole affair, both within RedBrick and with RB's relationship with certain segments of the fan community.
I had largely stepped away in the early days of ED3, since at that point I had a young family and little time to contribute. (I consulted on Kratas, but that was about it.) About the time that everything was falling apart, I was starting to get back into things. James was still around, but it was clear his heart wasn't in it. While hanging out before GenCon in 2013 he basically said he was only looking to make sure Earthdawn ended up in the right hands (hinting very strongly that he would really like me to do it). Over the course of the convention, I made the decision to give it a go.
And here we are.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:03 pm
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etherial wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:19 pm
The C does stand for Classic. ED1 was published by FASA Corporation from 1993 to 1999. ED2 was published by Living Room Games (under license from FASA) from 2001 to 2006. EDC was published by Redbrick, Ltd. (under a different license from FASA) from 2005 to 2008. ED3 was published by Redbrick, Ltd. from 2009 to 2012. And ED4 is published by FASA Games (a wholly owned subsidiary of FASA) from 2015 to the present. There have also been a handful of ports of the setting to other systems over the years.
Statistics:Posted by Cosmic55 — Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:30 pm
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Cosmic55 wrote: ↑
The C does stand for Classic. ED1 was published by FASA Corporation from 1993 to 1999. ED2 was published by Living Room Games (under license from FASA) from 2001 to 2006. EDC was published by Redbrick, Ltd. (under a different license from FASA) from 2005 to 2008. ED3 was published by Redbrick, Ltd. from 2009 to 2012. And ED4 is published by FASA Games (a wholly owned subsidiary of FASA) from 2015 to the present. There have also been a handful of ports of the setting to other systems over the years.Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:28 am
Oops. Sorry. Being new I thought the C stood for Classsic.
Statistics:Posted by etherial — Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:19 pm
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Statistics:Posted by Cosmic55 — Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:29 am
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Mataxes wrote: ↑
Oops. Sorry. Being new I thought the C stood for Classsic. Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:03 am
So... I'm not quite clear on what you have. You mention "when it first came out" -- does that mean the original (1993) edition put out by FASA? Because you also mention EDC, which is... a compilation of first edition material with some tweaksStatistics:Posted by Cosmic55 — Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:28 am
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Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:19 am
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