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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:37 am
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Statistics:Posted by yankeeschic — Sun May 25, 2025 2:42 am
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I like the idea of "Recovery Points" that can be used to make "Recovery Tests" and to use certain talents and such.
This actually helps sort it out in my mind a little better. Although I tend to think any bonuses that would affect a characters recovery tests should affect any healing ability that would use a "recovery point" but I have will have to look further into it. Fireblood is something I would allow booster potions to influence for instance.
Coming from 1st editionThe Undying wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:39 amHowever, since it uses these "potential" tests, there's ambiguity as to whether "Recovery test" bonuses should apply, even though they aren't "Recovery tests" in the "test" sense. Mainly, I'm looking at you, Fireblood.
This was left out of 3rd Edition, I have yet to get my hands on 4th.The Fireblood talent allows the character to make one of his available Recovery Tests in
the middle of a Combat Round, substituting the Fireblood step for his Toughness step in
the test.
It was common for warriors in our party to chug a booster while advancing toward an enemy at the start of combat in preparation for using fireblood. We kept this during 3rd edition and I will probably leave it in when running 4th.
We also used to allow a roll to be made on administering potions to unconscious party members (to make sure they do not choke) so that bonuses would be applied to their next RT which I consider as mandatory as the first RT of the day while damaged/wounded. I cannot think of a good reason to put off a RT while unconscious. I am sure someone smarter than me can.
Our groups rule for stun damage was as many of you suggested as well, stun damage is regular damage up until unconsciousness (non lethal damage) that must be healed regularly.
My feeling is the more generous I am with healing, the more generous I can be with damage lol
99.99% of encounters at my tables were randomly rolled. I can remember the day I found out not everyone does that, and it was and still is extremely weird to me. We would roll for a potential encounter, then if one was rolled there were charts (extensive) to determine what that encounter was. This made healing extremely important before moving. Although encounters were still possible while sitting in one spot, they were less likely unless in a particularly nasty area.
The blood damage taken for items that were thought to be used regular was tracked as regular damage, and was always the LAST damage that could be healed. Although if it is available to be healed, now that I think about it, how can cuts/bumps/bruises/wounds be healed before making oneself whole after the sacrifice of their own blood. Maybe blood damage that is available to be heal, should be healed first.
Any blood damage for long term uses (1year+1day) was subtracted from DR until the day it expires unless renewed.
Statistics:Posted by Scherme — Fri May 24, 2019 4:35 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
If you want some real-world analogies:
- Life Check and Death Cheat are very much in the vein of defibrillator paddles. You've coded, you basically just died, but the intervention keeps you from actually becoming a corpse.
- Last Chance (Nethermancy) is like the "push 10 cc of <that drug thing> STAT." You've coded, the paddles didn't work, but there's a VERY brief window while you're dead that all the tissue is still health, and you can restart the systems.
- Last Chance Salve and any interventions by Questers of Garlan are no kidding "you brought us a cold slab of meat." There's no real-world analogy.
LOL. I like the drug analogy.Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:24 pm
At this point, I think we just might have different visions, which is fine.If you want some real-world analogies:
- Life Check and Death Cheat are very much in the vein of defibrillator paddles. You've coded, you basically just died, but the intervention keeps you from actually becoming a corpse.
- Last Chance (Nethermancy) is like the "push 10 cc of <that drug thing> STAT." You've coded, the paddles didn't work, but there's a VERY brief window while you're dead that all the tissue is still health, and you can restart the systems.
- Last Chance Salve and any interventions by Questers of Garlan are no kidding "you brought us a cold slab of meat." There's no real-world analogy.
Anyway - yes different visions. Mostly I view it as dying not dead. A character is past their death rating is going to die. The point you place is much farther than that for me. Generally, my reasoning is that the difference between unconscious and dead is not much. To have it be true death as you put it - I would rather the difference be modified by perhaps a factor of Circle x 2.5 or so. Characters are squishy - and with ED - At least once a game we have some number up around 65-70 for damage with Circle 6 characters.... so...there would probably be one death per game by random accident which is no fun. That extra 15 point buffer would truly be useful there.
I see where you are coming from though.
Statistics:Posted by Loba — Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:31 pm
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Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:17 am
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For me, as Lys pointed out earlier, characters past their Death Rating are dead. The things that can bring them back from that are SUPER magic, not just simple magic. At this point, you are dealing with a no kidding corpse. For me, I can't justifying how stitching up the wound is going to help them become not-dead.
If you want some real-world analogies:
- Life Check and Death Cheat are very much in the vein of defibrillator paddles. You've coded, you basically just died, but the intervention keeps you from actually becoming a corpse.
- Last Chance (Nethermancy) is like the "push 10 cc of <that drug thing> STAT." You've coded, the paddles didn't work, but there's a VERY brief window while you're dead that all the tissue is still health, and you can restart the systems.
- Last Chance Salve and any interventions by Questers of Garlan are no kidding "you brought us a cold slab of meat." There's no real-world analogy. The body has been shipped off to the morgue, game over, time of death. Pushing more fluids, giving antibiotics, suturing wounds - none of that matters, this is a carcass.
As to much of the rest of your post, my opinions are well known on the whackadoo damage output available in ED4 close combat, I don't really want to revisit it here.
Yep, it's unfortunate, if someone lets that hit through, there's a good chance that post maybe Circle 7, a fragile Adept or an Adept that has already sustained a decent amount of damage is at real risk of going down, and to an amount of damage that will keep them down, and that is truly unfortunate from a system perspective to me. Armor isn't going to keep up, the scaling function has failed. Your best bet is to focus on avoidance - Defense, the dodges (Avoid Blow, Steel Thought), staying out of range in the first place if you aren't build for combat, etc.Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:24 pm
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The Undying wrote: someone going 20 over is basically DEAD dead, it should not be trivial to overcome that much damage. Now, I MIGHT go for something like "a success Physician versus (something) adds one hour to their revival period." This MIGHT allow someone to get their companion to a Temple of Garlen, at which point GM intervention in exchange for plot hook could be had.
Interesting concept.I hear you - 20 over is dead dead... you know you should have gone shopping shopping for that better armor instead of giving me a kiss kiss.
Honestly though - 20 over is doable in one hit. Sometimes that enemy archer just gets a 67 on damage when you were on your last leg and now you are at -48. Dead dead? Maybe. This has happened on just Circle 5 groups (I do tend to make opposition scary). So let's analyze it:
RT Count (or RI as you Use): 3 (Warriors will likely have used 1 or 2 already so only 1-2 left - let's just say they didn't)
Step: [TOU +7] [LifeCheck Rank 5 = Cheater Warrior] = 12
Wounds: 3 (-3 to Test)
Roll: 1:(9-3=6) 2:(18-3=15) 3:(15-3=12) : TOTAL 33 (Still Dead)
Add Death Cheat: +6 (let's just say +8 to first roll to be generous)
TOTAL: 41 (Still Dead)
Add Last Chance Salve: +5 (let's say on point with +5)
TOTAL: 46 (Still Dead)
That is just one arrow - to the chest and a lucky warrior not to have used their RT - which really they should only have 1 left instead of 3.
I'd argue that the Physician of Rank 4 (Circle 5 Character - expensive Skill) gets you a +4 which manages to stitch the wound over your chest after pulling out the arrow and cleansing it. This is for the last 2 tests. The warrior lives. Barely.
Now let's assume the more normal case of 1 RT left. DEAD. With a TOU of 7 you get 7 hours - 6 last chance salves at +5 if the party is rich and well equipped. Still likely dead.
Now let's assume you can use LifeCheck on each of those? Woah - you live! But not many folks will actually have Life Check...
Now let's make it not a warrior - DEAD.
Now let's add healing magic - POSSIBLY ALIVE.
So... rule is - don't get hit that hard.
Were I running this - if it was just an arrow - I'd let most anything work. On the other hand if it were 10 blows by an angry mob who smashed the character after unconscious - I'd call that 10 wounds (I tend to let an automatic wound if entirely defenseless) and I'd say without major healing magic you are toast. The damage is the same (48 over DR) but the circumstance is different. A single injury versus being cut up while down. The reasoning? GM fiat. Just makes sense. Just like if the damage were from some terrible flesh rending spell which gives multiple wounds. Then it is time to stitch up the character, clean and bind him/her and beat feat to a clean place that you can get a Questor of Garlen and a skilled Physician and Skilled Elementalist to do their best to save your loved comrade. 4 hours on the road gives you 3 hours of healing. 3 tests. You COULD live... but probably not.
The point here is - what does DEAD dead mean? Why "should" someone be dead? I definitely prefer a narrative decision to a rule/number based decision.
You are correct though - a Circle 7 group of adepts with a healer and Physician can probably heal someone 50-60 points if you are easy with the rules. I'm OK with that as long as it fits the narrative and the mood set by the players, NPCs and setting.
Statistics:Posted by Loba — Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:01 pm
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I'm still leaning on keeping the death stuff as it is - someone going 20 over is basically DEAD dead, it should not be trivial to overcome that much damage. Now, I MIGHT go for something like "a success Physician versus (something) adds one hour to their revival period." This MIGHT allow someone to get their companion to a Temple of Garlan, at which point GM intervention in exchange for plot hook could be had.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:34 pm
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Lys wrote:Honestly the way i handle it is that when a rechargeable charm is used i mark it off as spent, but leave the character's blood magic damage and health ratings the same. Then later when healing damage, i spend regained health points equal the charm's Blood Magic Damage in order to reactivate it. Like if you rolled a 5 on your recovery test, you spend 3 to reactivate Desperate Blow, and the other 2 to heal damage. It's super simple and mathematically works out the same. There's no need to track which damage was caused by what, and no need to alter your death or unconciousness ratings.
I use this system as well.And as noted by others earlier - I ignore "stun" damage as anything other than damage except that it can't bring you more than unconscious.
AS Undying has mentioned - I don't like the "recover all strain at the end of the day" rule. Strain is just self inflicted damage. Burst a capillary because you lifted too much? Well, stop lifting so much.
As for all the rules, Undying.. I tend to be more lenient for the recovery tests. As you have mentioned, often when someone goes down it is a knock down drag you out fight and a character is down to 3 health and then swiped by a mad warrior twice - bringing them 40-50+ below their DR. Yikes. Maybe if the Physician puts all the pieces together with thread while adding saving salves and the Nethermancer casts a powerful spell - those tattered pieces of flesh might mend. MAYBE.
Of course, I tend to also use the multiple wounds per hit rule and add flavor by making characters limp or unable to use their right/left arm or temporarily blind in one eye... and so on. This allows for fun scars, colorful history, and more hesitation to take on someone who can bite through a characters armor by accident (sorry Miss Dragon - didn't mean to wake you from slumber).
But then, I expect most good GMs have their own variant of this and your rules are more focussed on new players/GMs or folks that enjoy tallying up a body count.
Overall I would say the rules seem great though I would ditch the "not effected by other means" unless explicitly stated as such (as the spells you mentioned - though they don't cover Physician nor other bizarre concepts.
Statistics:Posted by Loba — Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:00 pm
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Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:41 am
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Note on the Horror Fend: This has been been updated in ED4. It now becomes inert once it stops being "re-charged," but even in the text quoted from ED1, the "re-charge" damage sounds much more like either normal damage or Stain rather than Blood Magic Damage (since it can be healed immediately). This perspective is further reinforced by the ED4 version where the "recharge" aspect has been converted to a Strain-powered ability. That makes it more of a Strain-powered charm, which is a different thing altogether (as long as you have the Strain to burn, you can keep using these charms).
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:36 am
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Hmm, I seem to recall that once a re-chargeable charm was used, we moved the damage from the "Permanent" to the "Damage" box (no adjustment to "Total Damage"). It could then be healed at-the-character's leisure. I do remember rechargeable charms coming up, the Desperate ones, I think. Most other blood charms go inert or break once used.
Ok, here's the text from 1e core book:
"Desperate Blow
A Desperate Blow charm costs its wearer 4 Damage Points. Charm makers usually fashion desperate blow charms from steel and quartz. The wearer's blood infuses the quartz with red, and one drop of blood is perpetually suspended from the steel. At the wearer's discretion, the desperate blow charm adds 6 steps to either an Attack Test, or a Damage Test. A desperate blow charm may be used more than once, but in order to reattach it, the wearer must first recover at least 4 points of damage in one Recovery Test."
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Assumptions: Charm falls off after being used. After healing at least 4 damage points, it may be reattached using the same process as the first time, simply pressing it against skin and letting the charm "break through to reach the blood it needs to activate". Desperate spell charms read exactly the same, except 3 Damage Points. The only other charm that says it can be reused is the Horror Fend Charm, which costs an initial 2 Damage.
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"Horror Fend
...The character chooses when to use the charm, and after using it once may either recharge the charm or let it fall from his body, destroyed. Recharging the charm costs the wearer an additional Damage Point. Unlike the initial 2 Damage Points, a character may heal any Damage Points lost by recharging without disposing of the charm. To heal the original 2 points of damage, the wearer must first destroy the charm ("let it fall off his body destroyed" -Tel)."
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So, we have 2 types, both cost Permanent Damage to install:
Re-attachable -- falls off your body when used (hopefully you chose smart and it falls into your shirt or gambeson). Must be "reattached" by pressing against living skin. I'd call that a Standard Action (fish it out of your clothe, press it firmly against skin - yeah that takes most of your 6 seconds).
Re-chargeable -- when used either falls off destroyed or must be recharged by costing 1+ Strain (not perm damage). Inert/falls off if not recharged after using. Re-charging seems to me a simple action (must be chosen at the same time/just after activating it)
Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:25 am
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