Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
Utsukushi
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:05 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Utsukushi » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:44 pm

In a lot of ways, a Spell Matrix isn't ever a `bonus' - they're a limited reprieve from a restriction. Magicians have to force their spells through a funnel that only lets them keep a handful of their spells available at any given moment. They don't add anything to your casting or your effect or.. anything, they just let you use your spells.

But they are crucial, because the limit exists independently of them, and they're the only thing that really loosens it. As nice as some of those Optional Talents are... I still can't imagine any Wizard anywhere taking anything but Standard Matrix, Standard Matrix, for 1st and 2nd Circle. One Matrix just does not a functional Wizard make.

Having Talents that don't improve -- that never need more than the initial LP investment to them -- doesn't fit, either. There's no precedent for it, and for what you're doing in this Edition (with the push for Talents Roll Dice!), it's directly counter-productive.

Giving away Matrices for free is one way to handle it, and I think I like that part, but it doesn't make the rest of them work any better. They need to be repurposed; taken out of the Talent list entirely. They made sense there in 1st Edition... they've made less and less sense there in every following Edition, as magic, magicians, and Talents in general have been re-examined.


...My suggestion would be to make them Knacks that can be added to Spellcasting. The "Buy Once, Use Forever" aspect you're giving them now already applies there - indeed, that would reinstate the Circle Limit, because you could easily say you can't cast spells higher than your Spellcasting Rank through a Matrix (without harming Grimoire Casting at all). A maximum of two Matrix Knacks of each type, plus the ones you get automatically alongside Circles.

It also gives you a clearer model for determining other Discipline's matching abilities - basically, everybody gets a free, Discipline-Specific, Talent Knack roughly equivalent to the Circle they get it at. (Which sounds like every odd Circle? 1st and 3rd, an Enhanced at 5th...)

Then offer a rule in character creation that a character can begin with one Rank 1 Knack instead of their Optional Talent choice, costing one of their starting Talent points. This is totally fair because a Novice Knack costs exactly the same in LP as the first Rank in a Novice Talent. The Optional Talent can still be trained later according to the usual rules. This allows Magicians to start with two Matrices as they will almost all want/need to do, lets other Disciplines make the same kind of choice if they want to, and doesn't technically force Magicians to do it if they want to wait a bit for their first extra Matrix.

...'Course, this all fits in with my, "Make Knacks More Central" plan in general, so along with this, I heartily recommend going along with that. Also, you should totally hire me. I've got fantastic ideas and I'm an excellent writer and I could have Knacks whipped into shape in a couple of ...OK, fine, but the Knack thing is a good idea. Think about it.

And whether you do that or not, Matrices need more work than this. This offers only a small hiccup to the intrinsic problems of Matrices with Talent Options, and totally undermines everything else you're doing to clarify What Is A Talent.

User avatar
kosmit
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:49 pm
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby kosmit » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:15 pm

Give those abilities as knacks to thread weaving. They will have rank then related to core of their discipline (thread weaving).
Duvvelsheyss

User avatar
Kasbak
Posts: 414
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Kasbak » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:38 pm

I could get behind the matrices as knacks mechanic. The only caveat I can think of is that I believe you would have to impose a limit on how many times you can buy the knack. I'd set it so that the rank of the base Talent gives a number of slots. Standard Matrix takes one slot, Enhanced takes two, so on and so forth through the tiers. So for example, with the Talent at rank 5, you could potentially pick up five Standard Matrices, or three Standard and one Enhanced, or one Standard and two Enhanced.

Whether you base the knack on Thread Weaving or Spellcasting will make a difference. Base it on Spellcasting, and a caster that Multi Disciplines won't be able to pick up extra matrices. Base it on Thread Weaving, and they get more matrix slots for each Thread Weaving they pick up. I can see the case made for either one, but it'd still be a decision.

User avatar
Tanthalas
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 2:25 pm
Location: Southwest Suburbs, Chicago
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Tanthalas » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:58 pm

I agree with a lot of what has already been said. Both by Josh and by Utsukushi.

I think that the Spell Matrix talent was a required option, and upping it doesn't really make for an 'interesting' use of legend points. Turning matrices into a class feature makes a lot of sense based on these Edition goals. However, I am not sold on the idea of extra matrices taking up the place of Talent Options. If you cannot spend legend points to rank them up, they don't act like talents, we shouldn't force them into that definition.

As I've said elsewhere on the forum, I think knacks are nifty. So of course I like the idea of turning matrices into knacks that tie off of existing discipline skills. Assuming that knacks remain mostly unchanged between ED3 & ED4, tying matrices off of Thread Weaving works well mechanically and I think that there are a ton of hidden benefits to doing it this way.

Let us say that you have a knack 'First [Threadweaving] Matrix' and you can have it available at Wizardry, Illusionism, Elementalism, or Nethermancy rank 3. That means that if any of the four mentioned talents are discipline talents, you can take the knack when the talent is at rank 1 (immediately). You can then also have the knack specify that this only gives you a matrix to cast a spell of the related spell type. A 'First Illusionism Matrix' knack can only hold and filter Illusionist Spells. You can then have a 'Second Illusionism Matrix' knack available at rank 5, Enhanced at ranks 7 and 9, and etc..

Making them a knack this way makes it difficult for humans to simply versatility into the casting game and overshadow full-time casters. They will always need to rank up the relevant Threadweaving before they can get to the knack. It also makes it possible for a caster pour on ranks of Threadweaving and get an Enhanced Matrix knack as early as possible. Is this a problem? Personally I don't think so...but with the revamp Panda is doing to spells, who knows.

I also agree with Utsu that it would be cool if each type of Threadweaving received its own knacks in this way. It could take the place or bolster the exiting 'powers' that disciplines get as of ED3. The Archer's 'Arrow's Eye View'? Now it is an Arrow-Weaving knack that allows you to roll Threadweaving in place of a perception-only roll and at a distance! I think this streamlines things and makes knacks feel much more 'core'. Plus it gives every Discipline to roll their Threadweaving talent!

HOWEVER, the line developers haven't mentioned any such goals to make knacks 'core'. Knacks are definitely an advanced rule and I'm fairly certain the devs won't break the mold and put Knacks in the Player's Guide. This means we would need to wait for the Earthdawn Companion to see knacks. With no rules for knacks, how could the authors balance it out for those with just the Guide and not the Companion?

Personally, I think the best way would be to delineate a special task for which each discipline can roll Threadweaving. Then simply reveal in the Companion that these special powers are knacks available to that Disciplines' Threadweaving at Rank 3.

Now the random powers Disciplines had and spell matrices fit squarely in line with existing game mechanics and aren't odd-ball side things.
I'm one of the Legends of Barsaive guys. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Bawdy Jokes? PM me!

shiinx
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:24 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby shiinx » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:46 pm

I also really like the idea of having matrices as talent knacks. Heck, the whole idea of making knacks more central is great, but probably comes a bit to late in the design process.

But for what it is forth, here is my idea to handle taking a spell matrix knack multiple times:

Simply make it a talent knack for Threadweaving and Spellcasting. You will still be able to take each knack only once, but per talent. To diversify further, the Spell Matrix knack for Threadweaving could be made to only hold spells of the respective school, while the Spell Matrix knack for Spellcasting could hold any spell, but be available later to compensate.

Some examples:

Normal Spell Matrix (Elementalism), knack for Threadweaving (Elementalism), available at Circle 3
Enhanced Spell Matrix (Elementalism), knack for Threadweaving (Elementalism), available at Circle 5
Normal Spell Matrix (generic), knack for Spellcasting, available at Circle 5
Enhanced Spell Matrix (generic), knack for Spellcasting, available at Circle 7

Telarus_KSC
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:26 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Telarus_KSC » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:56 pm

I've considered this a bit, and I don't like the idea of Matrices as Knack. There are two factors:
1) I see Spell Matrices as "Talent Slots that you can fill ON-THE-FLY with a limited number of abilities"... so in this case I see trading an Optional Talent for an extra Matrix as quite a good decision, because...

2) What about Spell Matrix Objects? If the caster-in-question goes for other talents, instead of more Matrices, they can always buy or create a physical matrix objects. If they don't want to have to bother with a physical matrix (it can get stolen, broken, etc) then they have to choose less Optional Talents.

I like this better than a Knack approach because the player has made a valid choice (and not a forced choice), and the consequence is that they have to deal with all of the complications of a physical object if they want both those Optional Talents & "extra" Matrices.

My 2 silver.

Utsukushi
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:05 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Utsukushi » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:26 pm

Shiinx's idea is brilliant. One open-use Matrix under Spellcasting, and a Discipline-specific one under Threadweaving. It strikes a lovely balance between devoted spellcasters and Humans using Versatility. With that combination, I'd suggest that the `free' ones that come with Circles should be open, like the Spellcasting one. (I've never found Human Spellcasters to be all that unbalanced, honestly - Matrices are such a tight restriction that most of those massive Grimoires they can build up goes unused anyway, so mostly it's just helpful for smaller groups.) And it offers an inherent limit to how many Matrices can ever be learned which is, by pure coincidence, the same as the limit is now.

It also clarifies the number of Matrices that can be gained through Multi-Disciplining - the Spellcasting Matrices, though open, is also singular; the Threadweaving Matrices are restricted, but you get one for each Discipline.

I know, I know - Tanthalas is right, this is totally in our own heads. I hope it's not too late to at least consider, though. Knacks are actually pretty well developed already; they just need to be brought in, and they can fill so many of the holes the developers currently seem to be struggling with.

Stormcrow
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:02 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Stormcrow » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:37 am


Telarus_KSC
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:26 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Telarus_KSC » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:02 pm

Yah, It also cuts down on the number of Matrix "Talents" that can be picked up purely through Versatility (only the ones in the optional pool, & only learn from some-one who has taken extra matrices). Otherwise, you have to MutliDiscipline to get all of the Matrices from a Discipline's path.

Stormcrow
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:02 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Stormcrow » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:20 pm

That's a good point actually


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “Product Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests