Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Mataxes » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:49 pm

I appreciate the feedback thus far, and I'm not going to address any of the particular comments or suggestions at this point, except one, which isn't about this mechanic in particular, but more of a general answer to a lot of the questions raised about changes to the system, and that is "why change something that worked just fine?"

My answer to that is -- and this is my general approach to this whole project -- that I'm not going to assume that just because something worked fine previously that it couldn't potentially be made smoother, clearer, easier, or better in some way.

We're all fans of the game, but in discussions about Earthdawn outside of places like this, there are a lot of people who respond to discussions about the game with a sigh and comment along the lines of "great setting, but I could never really get the mechanics", along with discussions about how they might have converted it to their favorite system du jour.

If I'm going to make a serious effort of a new edition, I need to go through and look at it all. I want to make sure I give the new edition the attention and effort it deserves, and try to avoid pure "change for the sake of change". In the end I may not quite hit the mark the way I want, and people may not agree with all the decisions I make, but I hope that people understand where I am coming from, and what I am trying to accomplish.
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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Slimcreeper » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:59 pm

In my (comparatively limited) experience, the length of combats is not a problem because of damage-to-health ratio, but because there are a lot of rolls to make: initiative, multiple attacks, damage, defensive abilities, etc. Someone mentioned Knockdown tests - a perfect example of an unnecessarily test. I'm not completely satisfied with this, but right now if the damage caused is equal to wound threshold + toughness step - 3, then you are knocked down. Basically, everyone is forced to take the step. Anytime I think a we can get away with taking the step, we do. No opposed rolls, except for parry/riposte/avoid blow and the like, and then only because I haven't figured an easy way to do away with it. I don't roll initiative for NPCs. I always look for the easiest way to do the math, or better yet, do away with the math.

(it's weird, though, part of the appeal of ED is the mechanical structure underlying play. Diceless or purely narrative games have 0 interest for me.)

At low levels, especially, it would be nice if there was a clear-cut and dramatic way for the tables to be turned. Of course, most mooks flee or surrender if they take a set number of wounds, but what about opponents that are not going to give up no matter how overmatched? Undead and cult members? Blood magic, pushing themselves! For cult members, especially! Hah, new idea. Can the undead use blood magic? There's a puzzle for another thread. I'm saying not.

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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Danger » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:01 pm


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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Danger » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:05 pm


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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby kosmit » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:40 pm

I think that Knockdown depending on dmg success lvl (vs Knockdown Step - typically strength or wound balance) will do fine.

I like the idea of lowering UR with stun dmg and I need to check it :D
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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Kasbak » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:40 am


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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Mountainshadow » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:02 am

[quote="Slimcreeper"]In my (comparatively limited) experience, the length of combats is not a problem because of damage-to-health ratio, but because there are a lot of rolls to make: initiative, multiple attacks, damage, defensive abilities, etc. Someone mentioned Knockdown tests - a perfect example of an unnecessarily test.[quote]

I'd even go a step further and say that combat drags out because of ill-prepared or unattentive Players in addition to the many rolls neccessary for all those talents. Don't get me wrong, I like all those talents and options that ED offers and wouldn't like to lose them. To make combat faster - be a well prepared GM, drill your players into a response routine for combat encounters, don't drag a fight out unneccessarily. Dropping the Knockdown Test and replacing it with a fixed formula like: damage equal to x-times Wound Threshold = knocked down - sounds like a good idea - I like this one and will test it.

On the changes to UR and DR I'd like to state that those have never been problematic at my table and all my Players liked the "buffer" between being out of the fight and dying. #Woundsx5 seems rather deadly for a roll on which my character's life depends. As someone else mentioned further up in this thread - the considered changes Sound to much like D&D for my liking.

All in all I appreciate the effort you put into this new edition, and to look at every aspect of the game for possibilities for improvement is a good way to do it - but keep mechanics that are not broken, don't get too carried away with the idea of change...

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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Stormcrow » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:12 pm


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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Roth » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:20 pm


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Re: Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

Postby Dale » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:13 pm

Easy item first:

The comment about "like the setting but too complex system" is one I've gotten from people over the years as well. The one change I always thought would help this would be to do away with attribute value. Why do I need an attribute value that translates to a step value that I use for everything? Make the step number the attribute value and then everything becomes attribute plus rank. I know there are other impacts to this. The cost of raising attributes as well as some derived stats are different even with the same steps. It could be done and would eliminate a full set of numbers that are really only used during character creation (mostly).

As to the DR/UR idea:

First, I don't really see how combining the two speeds up combat any. Lowering the values would, but you don't have to combine the values to get that effect. That being said, you could eliminate numbers from the page which could be good. The old UC becomes DR and if you take additional points equal to your tou (or tou step * some_multiplier) then you are dying could work. It keeps the buffer in but eliminates having to keep up with both numbers on the page and simplifies durability (durability increases amount by x instead of x/y).

As others have said a roll of Tou against wounds x 5 is too much. I tend to run 3-5 wounds on my caster (not hard to wound a caster typically) and even if I had a two dice toughness roll 15 would be hard. I know numbers were just an example though so I am not getting hung up on it.

Overall, yes this change could "simplify" things a little. Does the change really simplify enough to be worth the effort of the change? Probably not in my mind, but I am more in the indifferent category.


Strain pool:

I will say the groups I've run and played in are all strain-junkies. In combat spending a full round or multiple rounds weaving just isn't an option. At three points of strain per thread I am taking as much strain as our warrior just without the health pool to endure (I save on avoid blow, although my trade off is I don't manage to avoid much). When I played a warrior air dance was pretty much a given unless I was obviously not going to have a shot at going ahead of my opponent. I know many other classes have their fill of strain too.

I have tried different things over the years. I've had groups track strain on its own and let it refresh after a couple of hours rest (ie once out of combat assuming not in dangerous situation still). I've used the 7 Seas style where strain refreshes between "scenes". The players could heal it via recovery tests or it automatically clears after an "episode" is done. It isn't horrible but overall they hated tracking it and having to add it together (not hard, just didn't like it).

If nothing is sacred or off the table the only suggestion I could make would be keep strain in as it is now but increase the results of recovery. Recovering once you have a few or several wounds is very slow. While I appreciate that it makes perfect sense, it does slow us down a ton. Typically our group looks at 2 days to recover from damage of a significant combat and then another 4-5 days of wound recovery. This isn't exactly possible in the middle of a kaer-crawl. I've played in some games that we did great but we were just too beat up going into the finale of the kaer for us to push through. It makes sense but not exactly the height of fun and excitement. Eliminating the recovery test penalty for wounds would help. Allowing characters to recover a wound per recovery test (after fully healed) would help too. I would personally also say you can recover a wound by spending a recovery test even if you weren't fully healed overnight. Several times I've hit a new day with 1-3 points of damage that the first recovery test heals and can do nothing to heal the first wound for an entire additional day. Again, none of this makes it "more realistic" but would improve the fun and speed things up a bit.

Knockdown:

This test is more complex than it needs to be. I've been doing it so long it seems natural to me, but players I've introduced to ED tend to dislike its complexity. I would almost say to eliminate knockdown. If I am making a knockdown test that means I've already taken a wound. The wound by itself is pretty punishing. Being knocked down is just another slap on top of that. Outside of jump up rules (which was a nice add btw) or doing stuff from the ground (which is just asking to get stabbed) it just kills off another round of me not doing whatever it is I do (attack, cast, etc). It lessens the fun basically. Like above it is more realistic, but could be eliminated for the sake of speeding up combat and increasing the fun.
Dale


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