Seeking some feedback on a possible ED4 change

[kosmit]

I agree with Darth Quiris. It has worked for so long so why change that?

The thing that I would focus on is Knockdown. The need of making test slows thing down. I would rather see something like "If Damage Test scores Good/Excellent (choose one) Result against Wound Threshold or Knockdown (strengh/wound balance etc) Step character is Knocked Down. Period.

With new mechanic Success level per +5 above DN it could be like "if you got more than 1-2 successes (choose one - it need some tests which is better) with your damage against Knockdown Step character is Knocked Down" It would simplify things, take away need to count DN on the fly with "dmg-wound threshold+3".

I haven't mentioned that I appreciate being asked for feedback

[Kasbak]

Been getting more of my thoughts gathered on the single health rating option. I have to agree with the sentiment that I like having the two ratings as a buffer. However, if it were standardized to make death a set level beyond uncon, that could work. I'm not sure if basing it on wounds is the right option, as they already play a factor by reducing the roll for recovery tests. Going with uncon + toughness score would work, or maybe uncon + toughness score + circle, possibly with a multiplier, just so there is some scaling for higher levels of play.

I will say that with my experiences in combat, the problem isn't going on too long, it's being over too quickly. We have so many people with such heavy hitter attacks that we have coined the term 'chunky salsa effect'. As I have mentioned in other places though, my experience is probably outside the norm.

[shiinx]

I would like to caution you not to alter or simplify rules just for the sake of change. From what I gather from your post, you try to address two issues, shorten combat at higher circles and increasing the use of talents with strain. The second issue never occured at my playtables and the first one is debatable. Your proposed primary solution, however, does not address either. It only leads to more deadly combat as others have said.

If you want to shorten combat, you have to either decrease maximum health pools- however they are measured; or you have to rework the complete scaling of the talent system towards higher circles. Two important question in this direction are, why does combat take too long and what is considered too long. Maybe you are trying to solve a symptom and not the cause? Does it take long because the damage dealt is small compared to the health pools? This indicates a scaling issue; maybe due to the new armor defeating rules? Does it take long because characters are hit rarely? This indicates something has to change with avoidance talents or defense ratings. Does it take long because player require a lot of time for simple actions due to game mechanics?

If you want to increase the usage of talents that cause strain -again this never was a problem at our table- you need clarify the difference between non-lethal, lethal, and also illusionary damage. Maybe these types of damage also need to be separated a bit more. I always found it borderline, that a single cut for 1 point of damage could kill you, if you just received enough non-lethal damage in advance (but then again, one could argue that if your body is in such a strained state, a small wound could kill). The same goes for a lot of illusionary damage and a single real papercut.

In general, I would keep the distinction between Unconciousness Rating and Death Rating in some form or another as it allows for a well-needed buffer between life and death, for player characters as well as for NPCs. I would also keep scaling of the range between unconciosuness and death. With increasing damage values, the range has to grow as well, otherwise its purpose is gone with attacks that bring you straight from life to death, by dealing more damage than the entire range.
Considering strain, I would keep track of it as a separate value that is easier to refresh than normal damage, counts against your Unconciousness Rating, but not against your Death Rating. I know this makes things even more complicated than the current state, though.

[Stormcrow]

[Nahor]

I would not like to see DR/UR done away with. It's one of the things I really liked about ED. I know that hit to stun is a built in mechanic so you don't have to rely on asking the DM if the NPC is going to black out yet or not, but I don't find those extra mechanics as redundant.

Please don't do away with the DR/UR--to me it's intrinsic to the game as part of the flavor (It was the first game I played to use a dual rating). A strain pool is something that I have toyed with as an idea as well, but I think it's more applicable if ED were a video game rather than P&P. To me strain is part of the risk and as someone said when they put it in game terms: a torn muscle (should have stretched before taking on Vestrivan), headache induced from spell-casting or bloody nose (a la firestarter movie), etc. Strain is part of the risk of using a talent(s) singly or in combination with each other. As a Purifier I remember taking a bunch of strain but it was wroth it b/c I would deal a lot of damage and/or hit better as a result. Strain from adventuring talents and what not is part of what makes things difficult imo and makes a player question what to use when especially if they might end up getting in combat almost immediately after straining themselves on RP'ing or what not.

[Jamz]

I've always like the notion that as you "leveled up" your uncon/death ratings diverged giving you more and more of a buffer and only treated them as a single "damage track" and technically is easier then using negative numbers for death IMHO.

Given that, I could also live with the "dying if wounds > 0" method as well, although I would say wounds * 5 is way to high/hard. I'd prefer the normal "ED" scale of something like 5/7/9/11/13/15 TN's. AND/OR The use of a recovery test automatically stabilizes you (it only stabilizes and heals no wounds in this case), which gives squishies a chance.

To make combat "faster" I would simply lower the Uncon numbers in general and limit progression but give those numbers to the Death side (if both ratings were kept). It would let the GM's hit harder to drop pc's out of combat for a little deadlier feel without all the "death". Put more "capture" back in the game. With Horror's, there's ALWAYS a reason to keep a PC alive and it's usually worse than death muahaha

Regarding Strain, I would like a separate pool. It not like book keeping one more number is horrible. Most would just use chits/glass beads/etc assuming the pool is in the <20 range. With a Strain pool, more "things" could cause strain. Spell casting could cause strain to prevent the "I'll just cast this spell every 10 minutes ALL DAY LONG so it's always on" cheese. Or at least certain spells could cost strain or add options to Matrixes or changing them etc. A nice way to put "daily" or "combat" limits on things. But keep the "strain overflows into uncon track". I would also see this as an Adept ability so different disciplines get different pools/affects. I would also change the "when it recharges" condition to something akin to Recovery Tests, something like pool recharges after an hour of rest or mundane activities (ie no combat, no strain, no spellcasting, etc).

[Bogie]

I like the idea of just having one rating, whether you call it UR/DR or something else and that just tracks all types of damage.

Once greater than that rating you are unconscious. If you have a number of wounds less than or equal to your TOU step you are in pretty bad shape but most likely will pull through with care. If you have wounds greater than your toughness step your knocking on Death's door. Makes things like skin shift that much scarier but keeps the average combats less deadly.

I think it will raise the stakes for higher circles characters as well as they will be able to absorb and function much longer with higher wound totals.

Some talents could provide bonuses to this number as well making warriors able to absorb significant punishment before dying whereas a wizard might take a few solid hits and be done for.

[Mr_Jigsaw]

For damage i´d like to see something like two seperate monitors (stun/physical) like in shadowrun or
just two different types of damage symbols like in the (new) world of darkness (i know there´s three different types).
With the second choice you could easily mark different types of damage (stun/physical) stacking in one single box.
Just my thoughts.

[Slimcreeper]

I'm not really interested in these changes either. Death/Uncon is not so complicated or hard to understand.

It's funny - I had toyed combining them and then making wounds the mechanic that determined death. I think I had just a straight toughness test vs number of wounds. I decided the risk of unintended consequences was too great.

I do track stun slightly different. Instead of increasing damage, it decreases the unconscious rating. If it drops to less than 0 or less than the character's current damage the character falls unconscious. The very next time the character can make a recovery test all of the stun effect completely goes away.

[Danger]