ED4 Preview #3

[kosmit]

Ouch... First I thought that changing Durability and Karma to abilities is good solution. Now after reading some post it came to me that it's not.

I have always liked that you don't have to wait to advance in your abilities until you level-up (circle-up) like in DnD where there was nothing between dinging to next lvl to improve you (except magic items).

Ability to raise talents independly from circles was a major factor which made me to like this game in the first place. I like the concept of Durability not taking up slot for talent option, but I never considered it LP sink. Same goes for Karma Ritual. All my players also usualy have those talents 1-3 Ranks above their Circle. The downside of Circle Based Durability is the time when you adventure and don't have much downtime time and resources to find a tutor for a higher circle. Now you can always stay for a day in some tavern and meditate your Durability, Karma Rit or other talents. I don't like this change because it will do too much simplification and all will result in "more hp or karma=>circle advancement=>more downtime required".

I understand that for new players that kind of simplification will be ok because it's almost everywhere now but now I realised that flexibility in advancing in stats, abilities, and even hp values is the thing that makes ED unique. (I always hated DnD kinda way "you need to lvl up to buy new feat or raise one of characteristics").

Like many said it may be house ruled but I am saying that to show every point of view.

P.S I know I've mentioned Durability but think about most Karma-dependant Archers. They almost always in my games have Karma Ritual couple Ranks higher than Circle. Same goes for Weaponsmiths and Durability. They suck in attacking having Melee Weapons without Karma, but with Durability higher than their Circle they can become pretty good tanks.

[etherial]

[zayven]

[Roth]

[Flowswithdrek]

[Mogre]

I like the Karma and Durability changes. I usually let my players refresh their entire Karma Pool with a single Karma Ritual, however, there usually wasn't a decent area to perform it until the end of the adventure or a predetermined break (by myself as the GM). As for D&D/ 3.X Hit Points. Most players I've known hated the randomness of hit points. Back in the AD&D days it was possible for a mage to have more hit points than a fighter, which in my opinion, should never happen.

I don't like the idea of Karma for any Talent. I like the way it's set up now. There are blood charms to assist with that. Also... wouldn't this make Journeymen even better than they are already?

[Rajaat99]

I'm not pleased with this idea. I enjoyed having the option to by my Durability a rank,or two, above my circle. I liked the way EDR changed the karma ritual, because I hated paying for each karma point spent.
I did like the two initial preview ideas, however. Consolidating certain talents that were pretty much the same thing and giving beast masters a talent to toughen up their animal companions were good ideas. This idea needs to be re-examined.

[zayven]

Personally, I've never thought that multi-disciplining should even be allowed. It doesn't make any sense from a thematic standpoint given the way your discipline totally shapes your world view. Nine times out of ten, it seems like players want to do it just to pick up those few additional talents.

I think we're starting to see evidence of a divide between the direction of 4th edition and longtime, hardcore players. Changes like this are pretty obviously attempts to streamline the game system by removing any mechanical elements that can be "automated" without compromising the spirit of the game. It also removes loopholes that some GMs might find problematic (players dumping tons of LP into Durability or Karma Ritual or multi-disciplining to gain access to better versions of common talents).

I can understand the frustration, though, because the change DOES take away options. Still, it seems to me like this is more of a case of going from, say, 10 options to 8 rather than going from many options to none. But I'm also of the belief that the game actually may present players with too many options. Earthdawn is, at its heart, a simple game system (at least from a mechanics standpoint), but it takes a lot of experience with it to really understand how to min/max your character build to make it most effective. All of those options can be a little intimidating for a new player, especially if they aren't used to "skill-driven" game systems.

[Mountainshadow]

Changing Karma to a Discipline-inherent ability and allowing to refresh all Karma by performing your Karma Ritual once sounds nice, but I must state that in my experience most of the ED-Players I know and play with like the idea to increase their rank in Karma Ritual beyond their current Circle to increase their Maximum Karma. Same is true for Durability - almost every character in every campaign I GM'ed or played in had a higher rank in that talent than their current circle. How about improvements to those talents while advancing from initiate to novice to journeyman then to warden and master in your chosen discipline? Just like the higher Karma Step at Circle 13 in 3rd ED?
Simply making them increase every circle doesn't feel right.

[Slimcreeper]

I'm starting to come around, at least on the karma.

I'm not real sure how happy I am with talents/discipline talents right now because there are so few talents that require karma. In 9 out of 10 examples, it just means if it is discipline you can use karma. I don't really like requiring specific talents to be at a given level. A given troubadour may simply not be that into mimicking voices, so we are using 1st ed advancement rules (or at least the option that looks like them in the EDr book). I'm okay with the game dictating that a given talent is a discipline talent, core to the history of the discipline, and giving an adept special advantages with them. I've toyed with the idea of letting the player choose which talents were discipline in 1st and 2nd ed, or choosing a 'Core' talent in revised. That would let the player develop the discipline philosophy of his or her character organically. What the advantages the 'Core' talent would grant, I haven't decided.