Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
zayven
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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby zayven » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:50 am

Unfortunately, bringing Earthdawn to the masses has been THE biggest challenge the game has faced since first edition was discontinued.

Think about it this way: Earthdawn was originally cancelled because it wasn't selling very well. Let's simplify the numbers and say that 25% of gamers knew about Earthdawn in 1999 (by "knew," I mean that they had either played the game, seen it at their FLGS, or read about it online or in one of those sweet catalogs that Fasa used to send out). Second edition comes out in 2001, but it's published by a company that nobody has ever heard of with limited marketing and distribution presence. It also comes out a year after 3rd edition D&D hits the market and the d20 tidal wave is sweeping over the entire industry to drown any game that uses another system. Let's say that 10% of gamers even realize that this second edition has been released.

Now, second edition wasn't terribly well received and wasn't well supported. Redbrick shows up in 2005 to take over the property (not quite that simple, I know, but let's overlook that right now). They release the strangely titled "Classic" edition through what was at the time an unfamiliar print on demand format. Still, the game is released into the teeth of the OGL d20 monster after the property had been withering on the vine at Living Room Games. There's also confusion over how "Classic" edition differs from the others, so let's say that awareness dips down to 7%.

Redbrick puts out third edition in 2009. Now, this is really the game's first proper release since the 90s, coming out through Mongoose, an honest to God RPG publisher. Online presence is further boosted by places like Drivethrurpg by that point, too, so let's say that awareness pushes back up to 10% (15% if you're feeling really generous). Things go well for Redbrick for a while before the bottom inexplicably falls out and the whole company seems to implode (no need to go into the messy "he said, she said" details here). Next thing we know, Fasa Games shows up and takes over the property. Everyone is excited because of the name and we feel like ED is FINALLY getting the attention we feel it deserves.

Then the whole Revised edition thing plays out, led to both indignation and indifference. Nothing has really happened for a few years, likely driving consumer awareness back below 10%. Not exactly a position of marketing strength.

Obviously, I'm making a total straw man argument here with arbitrary numbers, but let's talk for real here for a minute. I see a LOT of the same names posting on these forums. I haven't seen an Earthdawn book on an FLGS shelf for years and haven't seen one in a big box bookstore (which in 2013 only means Barnes and Noble, I guess) in well over a decade. I've never met a gamer under 30 that's ever even HEARD of Earthdawn (and only a few over that age that have heard of it). I don't know ANY gamers that even want to TOUCH a game that doesn't use a d20-derived system (sissies, by the way).

As great as Earthdawn is, I just don't know how it's going to be able to reach people that aren't already playing it. I hate to say this, but I feel like the came would have FAR better commercial prospects if it was a dedicated Pathfinder game. I'm not recommending this route, but the VAST majority of gamers are playing either D&D 4e or Pathfinder right now. If we really want to increase awareness, then the logical move would be to sell ED's soul and make it an OGL Pathfinder game. I'm not advocating this, but wouldn't this be the best move from a business standpoint?

By the way, I realize that the reviews of the Pathfinder version of 3rd edition were decidedly mixed, but a dedicated 4th edition totally rebuilt for that ruleset (rather than just adapted for it) would probably be better received.

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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby Jaracove » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:07 am


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Kasbak
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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby Kasbak » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:54 am

I have to agree with Jarcove. As I noted in another thread, one of my favorite aspects of Earthdawn is how the world mechanics intertwine so well with the setting and the rules. Fixed scale dice (d20 or even percentiles) just can't make that work. Another open ended high system might work, but it would be a difficult and delicate balance.

I believe the best marketing approach, which seems to be ocurring now, is to spread out and get more buzz going about FASA as a whole. This means branching out with other games done with other settings that share a lot of the same mechanics. For me personally and from the experience I have had with others, setting has a LOT more influence on whether or not I will enjoy a game than rules. If you get someone hooked on a setting they like and introduce the mechanics that way, I think there is a greater potential to lure them in. D20 may get you more convention one offs and casual gamers, but for a dedicated base that will really drive long term sales, I think you'll do much better having a rich world with lots of potential. It's the difference between making something for up front sales for quick cash or making something you truly believe in and are proud of. I believe FASA is on the right side of that comparison.

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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby Crusader » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:55 pm

Well, what can I say, when I first read this I wasn't overly thrilled. Maybe I am even cynical at this point. Another version of Earthdawn, what to think of that? I've played the game for 16 years now and I am quite comfortable with third edition. Cathay was the first fresh infusion in a long time. Finally some new Disciplines to play with, a new world to explore. Similarly I loved the Kratas book to finally get some in-depth knowledge of it, finally Earthdawn was starting to see something new. I was rather hoping for more along that line, but it was not to be. Fasa took over, and lo and behold, a Revised edition. What changed? Nothing really, so I skipped that one in hopes of more supplements coming that I didn't know yet (so not another mists of Betrayal which did see the light of day). And now? 4th edition. We don't know anything yet, and I want to be optimistic, since ED has been my favorite RPG of all time. However, to date no edition has seen as much innovation as first edition with it's myriad of source books. Every edition since has struggled to bring out anything beyond the core books. That's what I want, not another set of core books, but new content. New Disciplines, New places, New Creatures. Not the same old, same old. So I'll bide my time, see what 4th can do for us veterans. If it can bring out something beyond core that prickles my interest, then I'll consider buying it, not before. That's what we should have a kickstarter for really, and one I'd love to put in some money.
Last edited by Crusader on Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zayven
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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby zayven » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:27 pm

Look, I personally dislike the d20 system for a lot of reasons, but you can't ignore the fact that the VAST majority of gamers use it. What's the point of selling new editions of Earthdawn to longtime players like us over and over again? If the point is to expand the market for the game, then shouldn't we want ED to be in the best position to appeal to that?

Again, for the record, I don't like the d20 system. Having said that, I'm not suggesting that Fasa do another slapdash conversion. Mongoose's Conan rpg was an absolutely brilliant conversion of the d20 system that molded the system around the particulars of the setting, not the other way around (for anyone that hasn't seen it, I think was the best d20 game EVER released). I think that it was a great example of how that system can be modified to better express the particulars of a setting.

As far as having a dedicated fan base to drive sales, I kind of feel like you're looking at the dedicated fan base. As of right now, there are 313 registered users on this forum (which includes admins). Out of those 313, 90 of them have never posted anything and less than 100 have posted ten times or more. Now consider that at least a portion of those numbers signed up for Blue Planet, Demonworld, or Fading Suns discussions. The dedicated fan base for Earthdawn doesn't seem to be enough to even drive short-term sales, much less establish long-term ones.

The casual games that get exposed to the game at convention one-offs are precisely the people that Fasa needs to win over. Dedicated d20 games aren't just "kids" that don't know what's out there, either. Plenty of them are longtime gamers who don't want to take the time to learn a new rules system. As I've said, I personally don't like the d20 system, but I would rather see a d20 version of Earthdawn become a prominent success with a whole new generation of fans rather than see it continue to appeal to the small group of longtime fans that would be playing the game whether a new edition came out or not.

Does this amount to "selling out"? Sure, it probably does. But what is the goal here? If Earthdawn was going to be a major success in its current form then it would have happened already, either with first edition or third edition. I guess there's nothing wrong with the game being targeted at a small group of hardcore fans, but a part of me wants to see this great setting reach a lot more people. To be fair, the danger of converting to d20 would be that it fails to attract enough new gamers and loses the old ones in the process. That's probably the best argument against such a change.

I'm really not trying to be a sourpuss here. As I've repeatedly pointed out, I don't like the d20 system and it pains me to argue that Fasa should consider going that route. I want the game to succeed, but I think this new edition needs to take a lot more chances than previous editions if it's going to seriously think about expanding its fan base.

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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby Jaracove » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:58 pm


zayven
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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby zayven » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:12 pm

I think that's a bit extreme. So exactly how much can you tinker with the existing rules until it's "not Earthdawn anymore"?

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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby Kasbak » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:20 pm

Zayven, my point was that if it is familiarity with the step system that us holding people up, then there need to be more games using the step system that appeal to a wider audience with their setting, to give more encouragement for people to learn it. The step system is a big part of the appeal to Earthdawn, and spending the energy to convert it to something with less appeal just to pull on a few die hard d20 sales isn't going to be worth it. I'm not a marketing or demographic person, but from my perspective, gamers will most often learn a new system if the game is fun and the setting appeals to them. I don't think there are enough potential sales among those who outright refuse to learn a new system to make it worth trying to conform to them.

As for the loyal base, I was meaning a base for FASA as a whole (and thus indirectly a base for the step system), not just Earthdawn. Gaining one opens the door to a rise in the other.

zayven
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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby zayven » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:51 pm

I guess you know more open minded gamers than I do. Probably 9 out of every 10 groups I see looking for games where I live are playing a d20 based system (and the others are playing Savage Worlds). When I've met with people trying to set up a new group, the conversation inevitably boils down to "we like Pathfinder, let's use Pathfinder." It sucks and I hate it, but it's the reality of the industry right now.

Now, it could be that you run the marketing numbers and find that d20 products are just as likely to be failures because the majority of d20 gamers are running their own homebrew campaigns (because, as we all know, 95% of DMs are either aspiring novelists or a failed ones). The numbers could show that even well produced, unique d20 rulebooks (say, Mongoose's Conan rpg that I mentioned, FFG's Midnight and Dawnforge settings, or Kobold Press's recent Midgard campaign setting) face an uphill battle against the generic D&D inspired stuff that Paizo is putting out.

THAT would be a reason to stay the course with a unique system. If market research shows that you're not going to be able to meaningfully expand your market by switching, then obviously you don't do it. But that's different than not raising the question at all. If FASA wants Earthdawn to succeed, I hope they're looking at ALL the possibilities and not limiting their options because they don't want to alienate a very small fan base.

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Re: Earthdawn: Fourth Edition coming in 2014

Postby Slimcreeper » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:36 pm

Eh, I don't think going the d20 route is smart. That is a crowded, crowded arena. And it is clunky and finicky. People that I run games with like the system just fine and adapt to it quickly enough. If we are doing a 4th edition, streamline it and publicize it. The step system is fun - have faith in it! ED needs more butts in the seats playing it - free quick start rules and a fun sample adventure. We need demo games in FLGSs across America and the world.

You know how on social media there are superusers that drive the content, write most of the reviews, etc? Or a few heavy drinkers that consume most of the alcohol in the US? Same's got to be true of gamers. And the people who own FLGSs know who they are. A certain amount of internet research could find the ones online - the fact that they are so active should make them easy to find. Send direct appeals to those people: "We see that you are one of the leaders in your local RPG community. We have a game that we really believe in and would like for you to give a try: Earthdawn. Here is a free PDF. Let us know if you have any questions about how to run it or any feedback. Here is Josh's home phone number. Thanks a ton! Yours, FASA."


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