Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
treorai
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:54 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby treorai » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:28 pm

My Fading Suns Epic:

Xiaomei
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:30 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby Xiaomei » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:07 am


Slimcreeper
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:18 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby Slimcreeper » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:44 pm

I never played to a high level, but I've always liked the rules pretty well. The step table, which is the most controversial, is really only clunky for a couple of sessions, and then it becomes pretty intuitive. One thing you could simplify without much trouble is standardized damage - attacks do set damage at each success level (average for an average attack, excellent for an excellent, etc.) It would make your attack step much more important than your damage step, though. Probably the most complicated factor is the spellcasting system. Others have touched on the multiple rolls and rounds required for most spells; I've thought of letting the caster take the average roll on thread weaving tests.

The biggest thing you could do, though, is just handwave most of the rules. If you're going to be monkeying with the rules to any extent it's all just going to be one big play test anyway. If you are a pretty intuitive GM, just set DNs and let the characters roll. Skip all the secondary characteristics of everything. Use narrative movement and just tell a story. If your players trust you it could be really fun with only a slight chance of absolute disaster on a regular basis; furthermore, everyone knows there is nothing more fun than absolute disaster.

Telarus_KSC
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:26 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby Telarus_KSC » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:17 am


Telarus_KSC
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:26 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby Telarus_KSC » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:36 pm

Also, there are a lot of Talents/Skills in the book, but these basically replace the whole class-based advancement of the various D&D flavors (feats, skill points of varying costs, class-features, etc), with some remaining 'perks' listed in the Discipline Advancement. I find ED to be the perfect balance between class-based characters and totally skill-based systems. I hope the above helped you wrap your head around some of the smooth & rough points in ED3/R. Do you have any other questions?

zayven
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 12:29 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby zayven » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:31 pm

I always thought the step system was pretty easy, personally. I think the thing that throws new players off is the fact that your attribute value does not equal your step value. The original game should have just forgone the 1-18+ attribute range, made your attribute value equal to your step value, and adjusted Legend Point increases and other attribute related mechanics accordingly. There's no real reason for attributes to be different from every other mechanic in the game other than the fact that when ED came out in 1993, gamers were used to seeing attributes on a 1-18+ scale because that's what D&D did. It introduces an extra layer of complexity for no reason (at least none that I can see). In my opinion, it's something that should have been done away with years ago, but it's become so firmly entrenched in the system's "legacy" at this point that nobody ever thinks to question it (kind of like Karma, which I've railed about elsewhere for other reasons).

The only thing that really irks me about the step system is that you need to refer to the chart to know what dice you should be rolling whenever a roll is modified. Yes, I know that you could memorize this, but if you don't play regularly, you're probably going to need to consult the chart. Of course, you could always use the alternate rule from 2nd edition that just applied bonuses/penalties to the dice roll result rather than have them alter the step number itself. Old editions of the game had a condensed step chart on each character sheet, but this was removed on the 3rd edition sheets for some reason. Actually, probably my biggest nit-pick about 3rd edition was the fact that the step chart appeared on ONE page in the ENTIRE book. There's nothing more frustrating in an ED game than misplacing the step chart in the heat of an adventure.

Having said all that, you could make the game much easier for players by prebuilding discipline progression so that it resembles D&D style class progression. Once a character hits a certainly Legend Point threshold, they would just gain ranks automatically without having to decide where to allocate their points. It's generally easier for players to be told what they can do rather than asking them what they'd like to do. That would be a LOT of work for the GM, though.

zayven
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 12:29 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby zayven » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:36 pm

Sorry, I guess it was ED Classic that used the static bonuses, not 2nd edition. The rulesets are so similar that I can't keep them separated in my mind.

User avatar
Mataxes
Site Admin
Posts: 907
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:51 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby Mataxes » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:14 pm

Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn

zayven
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 12:29 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby zayven » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:52 am

Ah, I forgot about the derived attributes chart.

That's a good point, but my counter to that would be whether or not those small differences are significant in the grand scheme of things. I know that the Defense Rating stat is slightly off-set from Step value (the 2, 2, 3 progression) so that it isn't directly tied to the 3 Attribute ranks per step progression, but that seems kind of minor to me. Death Rating seems a bit more affected since basing it on Step as there's about a 4 point swing throughout each Step rank, but I still don't think this is a huge deal. Any standardization or flattening that would occur from basing derived stats seems like it would be very minor. I suppose you could argue that this will decrease the differentiation between the characters, but I don't know that this is the type of differentiation that players would find meaningful.

As far as the racial bonuses go, I don't know why you even need to bother with handing out bonuses if they don't affect the Step value. In my experience, players always game their Attribute values to get the best Step value anyway, leaving as many Attributes one rank away from a Step increase as they can manage. Since a Step increase equates to a +/-3 Attribute bonus, I don't see why that isn't the baseline instead of the traditional +/-2 from earlier editions (I know 3rd introduced the baseline stats, but I think 1st, 2nd, and Classic generally used +1s and +2s). Such a change would obviously affect the overall power level and you would have to do something to prop up humans since they don't get a bonus, but you could give humans some comparable bonus to their secondary attributes or just let them have a free Step increase to any Attribute.

I know I'm sounding a bit nit-picky about this, but I just want to determine whether we're attached to a lot of these rules because they're worthwhile or because we're just accustomed to them. If some of these rules are getting in the way of bringing new players into the game and aren't adding anything significant, then I think there should be a conversation about whether or not they need to be changed. Again, though, this is all based on my previous assumption that the relationship between the Attribute system and the Step system is something that throws new players off.

zayven
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 12:29 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Is it possible to simplify the rules?

Postby zayven » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:02 am

On a slightly related note about the differences between the races, I think that most RPGs place far too much emphasis on making this a numeric difference. Compared to other games, though, ED does a pretty good job of differentiating the races with racial abilities.

I could go into a long diatribe about how it doesn't really make sense to standardize Attribute differences between humanoid races (for example, we always "hear" in fantasy settings that elves are less hardy than humans, but we never really see that claim born out in the fiction), but this probably isn't the time or place. Unless you're talking about a SIGNIFICANT physical difference (i.e.-Trolls, Obsidimen, or Windlings), I don't know that you need to impose any Attribute bonuses at all. In fact, shifting Attribute bonuses to the derived attributes might make a bit more sense if you're aiming for minor racial differentiation (especially if you've done away with Attribute values and gone to straight Step values). For example, if Elves are nimble, give them a Physical Defense bonus; if Dwarves are hardy, give them a Death Rating bonus.


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “For Game Masters”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests