GM's NPCs and involvement

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
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Harlequin
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GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby Harlequin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:26 pm

Hey guys!

Sorry, this will be a long post.

I'd like to know more about how you handle NPCs that are part of your player's group in your quest.
Do they take center stage or are they more in the background?

I'm asking this because, we've come to a point in my campaign where I feel like the NPCs have become way too important, which makes kind of like the GM's playing characters as well as running the story.

From your perspective, should a GM be too involved directly in a quest?

Here's an example of what happened a while back :

The session starts at 8h00 at the GM's house, so, the other players and I get there for 7h30, in order to say hi, ask about how everyone's doing, the usual banter. Around 7h45, before we actually start the last session's recap, we start talking, between players, about the campaign.

So we start discussing between ourselves about what our group should be doing (a little bit of metagaming I would say)

Let's say we argue, between players, wether we should go to Throal first or Scavia, for whatever reasons

Player 1 : I think we should go to Throal first because we have important business with the king
Player 2 : I think we should go to Scavia first because we need to find information about this horror and then, report it back to the king
GM : I think we should go to Throal because there's also an important book that we need to bring back to a scholar. We can then report to the king and ask him for support regarding our trip to Scavia...

So, after a few moments of silence where the other players and I didn't quite understood why he was telling us this, I bluntly told him : Well, if you're the GM and you want us to go to Throal directly, why did make it so important that we have to go to Scavia in the last session?

He then replied : But that's not the GM talking, it's NPC number 1, giving is input.

Then, he realised that we had an ongoing e-mail chain going on about our character's objectives and personnal goals, to which he said he needed to be copied on everything Earthdawn related...

I think it's kind of weird that a GM is that much involved in a campaign, where he's playing mulitple and quite important NPCs
Every time we try to have a players only discussion, he's jumping in, as if he was also a player in the campaign.

What are your 2 cents on this?

treorai
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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby treorai » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:33 pm

As a GM, the only time I ever have NPCs join the party, it's strictly temporary, and they don't join in on the decision making process. In my personal opinion, the game is about the PCs, not my NPCs.
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Anunnaki
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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby Anunnaki » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:18 pm


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Harlequin
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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby Harlequin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:41 pm

Thanks for your input.

I have no issues asking the NPCs for directions from time to time, but when the GM proactively joins a players only discussion (if there's such a thing) because he's also playing in the campaign, that doesn't quite sound right to me...

And please, don't get the wrong idea, I know I've been complaining in my posts lately, but I truly love Earthdawn!

I'm actually playing 2 different campaigns, 3rd ED and 2nd ED

The GM I'm having issues with is the 2nd ED game, the campaign has been running for several years and he's been playing the same NPCs, which have been a part of the group for a long time. I feel the NPCs are way too involved and always have something to say, their opinion to give, when we don't even ask them. Overall, the game feels fudged because they're always giving their input no matter what we're saying, it's like he's playing on his own campaign, with goals in mind for these characters. I don't know how to put this but for me, it's just plain weird o.O

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slayride
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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby slayride » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:19 pm

The Game Master shouldn't be too involved in the decision making process for what the players want to do. A Game Master character can give advice on how to accomplish a goal once the players decide what they want to do if the Game Master character has some knowledge. But the Game Master Character shouldn't be advising on where to go next before you have made a decision unless the Game Master Character is specifically asked by the players (This actually happens a lot more in my games, but its a bit natural since Dar has been around since the beginning of the game (A charioteer, he sort of spent a year in game (3.5 years out) driving them around, never going into caves/rough terrain (about 50% of adventures), and generally being the least intrusive NPC ever since his knowledge is limited to For Dei Military, Farming, and Wagon Driving about the only thing he could advise them on is For Dei Tactics, and they never asked), and Tsu, Ching, and Hauk-do are all Game Master Characters that recently retired from being Player Characters, so its rather natural that the PCs would want their advice since they have been adventuring with/working for them for so long).

My other question becomes how does the Game Master Character know about this book/importance?

I often have Game Master Characters simply leave and go do whatever their goal is. For example, Zidane and Syrion (Former PCs) are assumed to be off hunting Nethermonks in Shui Dei to avenge the loss of their villages to Nethermonk attacks.

Ylad Rin is hunting down the one-hand gang and slaying any Nethermonks he also comes across for what both did to his and K'iah''s village.

Bei and his company have been doing some plot related things, investigating a disruption in the Tower of Secrets, the Yen'hi'ji's involvement in Taolin, etc. They've been coordinating with the group since the Yen'hi'ji seem to be mutual enemies until their most recent defeat and are now resting and waiting to help the group stop the disruption of the Tower. After they accomplish this, they will go back to the Tower to make sure it is saved.

Tsu is in Taolin, Ching at Heng Na, and Dar is running the caravan between the two areas, with two samurai bodyguards at each location. Which means if the party is in Heng Na or Taolin they can always talk to their former employee for advice or to see if the brothers have any work for them to do for silver.

Hauk-do is currently traveling with the group as he is partially responsible for the disruption at the Tower of Secrets (from a way earlier plot thread at the beginning of the campaign). Once the current storyline ends, he will return to Taolin/Heng Na and see what he needs to do to help the business (since he is the fourth partner, with Dar, Tsu, and Ching).

Generally, though, each NPC needs to follow its MOP, motivation, objective, personality. Tsu and Ching want to make money, Dar wants to stay as far away from For Dei as possible as a deserter, Hauk-do believes that spreading trade is one of the ways he can help unify Cathay, various reasons, but the four partners all have a mutual interest in their business. They'll generally be running a route from Heng Na to Taolin and back, so they'll be around, but only when the group is in that area.

Bei and company are trying to stop yen'hi'ji at any cost which has them cross paths with the group occasionally.

Syrion, Zidane, and Ylad Rin are all in the Jungle of Endless Wandering, so if the group ever finds themselves in that area, they might find them trying to exterminate the nethermonks or the one-hand gang and may ask for help.

None of these characters will ever be permanently with the group though, as they simply have different goals.

But that's my two cents, if you want your Game Master Characters to have goals, have them go attempt to accomplish them off camera. The Player Characters are supposed to take center stage.

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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby zayven » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:00 pm

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but as a player I always hated feeling like I was being railroaded by the GM. Having NPCs in the party makes it very easy for the situation you've described to take place. There are a lot of GMs out there that put more importance on the campaign/story that they want to tell rather than helping the players to shape the campaign that they want their characters to take part in.

As a GM, the only reason I've resorted to using NPCs in the group is when there is a small party. I used to run a group with only two people and neither of them wanted to run a spellcaster, so I created one. It was very difficult to resist the temptation to use that NPC as a plot hook or a deus ex machina device. For that reason, I no longer put NPCs in the party unless the players want to hire a relatively faceless mercenary for some especially dangerous quest.

As far as the GM wanting to know everything that the players are talking about, I think that this is actually pretty necessary. If the players want to do something, then the GM kind of has to know about it so that he can do the requisite preparation. You can't very well have the GM spend weeks preparing a campaign in the Kratas area only to have the players show up on game night and inform him that, actually, they would rather go explore Parlainth. "Keeping secrets" from the GM generally isn't a good idea in my opinion. The GM is not your enemy; the more information a GM has about what the players want, the better he can tailor the game experience to help them get the most out of it.

Having said that, the GM shouldn't be overbearing about it either. Some GMs are really touchy about this sort of thing, especially the ones that have an old school D&D view that GMs should have an adversarial role with regards to players.

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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby Anunnaki » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:30 pm

Well, it's not a specific Earthdawn issue, from what you have described Harlequin. It sounds more like a GM-style issue, whether from inexperience, a genuine desire to be part of the player group, or some other situation. I've played in many games over the decades where the GM has run characters with varying degrees of involvement. I've GM'd plenty of games where I had active characters in the group to help as henchmen; as Slayride and Zayven noted, there are good reasons to do that (long-term party involvement or small party). But as a GM, you really should curb the desire to use your character to outplay or railroad the player characters.

If you're not comfortable with your GM's style, perhaps a conversation with them about it might help settle things? They might not even be aware that what they are doing is being counterproductive to group fun.

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Harlequin
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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby Harlequin » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:29 pm

Thanks guys!
I really appreciate all your comments and suggestions :)

I wanted to see here before I ask the GM to get a general idea of how others run their game.
I'm definitely going to have a discussion with him and revise a few topics and give my opinion on how I feel when I'm playing this game.

I know the other players feel the same to some extent, I'll ask him if he can dose off the Npc's involvement a little bit, and give more space for us ;)

On the other side, is there something, as a GM that you would like your players to change?

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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby ArcadianRefugee » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:07 pm

Our group has one NPC.

Really, it's a PC, but the "P" in question can rarely make it and I simply maintain the character as an NPC so the group doesn't get weakened by P's absence and so P can get some Legend Points.

Anywaym when in NPC mode, I play him as I would anyone else who didn't have access to GM Knowledge. I kind of have a sliding scale of "good idea, bad idea" and have him function along those lines (modified by things like his Discipline, Talents, Skills, and the personality traits the actual player has given him). So if the group asks if he thinks they should engage in a frontal assault or wait and ambush, he'll opt for ambush. Sometimes, he gives them good advice; other times, not so much.

Hell, in one campaign, an NPC had a "know it all" flaw -- that is, he acted as if he knew everything, but it was mostly just show. At one point, the group asked him for his opinion on an upcoming encounter with some monster or other and he flubbed his knowledge roll, so he just made stuff up rather than admit "I don't know" (totally in-character for him). Needless to say, the party had a more difficult time than they might have.

Beyond that, they tend to take a backseat to the PCs. Way I see it is, the players are there to live out / play out a story, and putting too much emphasis on the NPCs (other than as "MacGuffins") takes away from that.

:K

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Re: GM's NPCs and involvement

Postby ArcadianRefugee » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:15 pm



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