Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Discussion on the Fading Suns game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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LeperColony
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Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby LeperColony » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:56 pm

Hi all,

This is my first post to these boards, though I had been on the old Redbrick forums. I'm also happy to see FASA back. Shadowrun and Battletch were two of my favorite games (before SR4 ruined it and Battletech's timeline became sort of silly). As a long time Fading Suns supporter, I'm excited to see one of the best gaming companies producing one of the best sci-fi RPGs. I've been playing FS since the 1st edition, having discovered the RPG via the computer game, and own almost the entire product line (fingers crossed that Santa finishes off the last few missing volumes). Like most FS players, I was enthusiastic when a third edition was announced, a little disappointed when it was corrected to a "revised" edition, but still eager to see the result. Now that I have had the chance to review the Player's Guide, I'd say it is a mixed bag. If I had to give it a letter grade, I'd say B-/C+. It kills me that I can't assign it a higher value, but at the same time, I think it shows a lot of promise.

The Good:

- Another FS book: Always glad to see the product line continue. So many good RPGs fall by the wayside, so I'm happy that FS has enough support to justify a new edition.

- Sidebars: The Revised Edition has a number of very useful sidebars. The optional rules they provide are nice enough, but the real gems are the role-playing aids. Little insights like "Time" on page 33 are useful for immersion purposes, and the slice of life pieces (such as "Inside the Noble Mind," page 43) help players, especially new players, by providing valuable context on the nature of Known Worlds' society, and how particular character types might fit in to it.

- System Improvements: There have been a number of very nice system improvements.
- Removal of 10% auto failure: Getting rid of 19-20 auto failure was long overdue. Really, 5% rate of certain bungling is sufficient.

- Damage Type: The addition of keywords to armor and weapons (Hard/Soft/Plasma/etc) is a good way to create a uniform system that allows for a wide range of effects, but that governs those effects in a way that is consistent and easy to learn.

- Defense: This is an innovative and clever mechanic that provides a way for FS designers to balance the game. By having Defense subject to the activities of attackers (such as having Defense lowered when the target of multiple attacks), it provides a way for even non-combat characters to contribute in combat, by conducting actions that target Defense, rather than inflict damage. Personally I would have liked to have seen a Defense penalty inherent in certain armor types, to reflect bulk and movement restrictions, but also the feeling of near-invincibility someone may display in ceramsteel.

- Skills: By and large, the new skill list is better than in previous editions, with a few notable exceptions. It doesn't really make sense to me why Shoot isn't a natural skill anymore. Like Fight or Melee, everyone has a basic aptitude with aiming at things with ranged weapons. If it was a balance issue (i.e., it was too cheap from a character points/xp metric to be good with ranged weapons), you could always cap the natural skill based on a learned skill of a particular weapon type. For instance, you could require a "weapon proficiency" system, where weapon categories are purchased for a flat cost, and that "unlocks" the full Shoot value. Otherwise you have a penalty. Alternatively, you could cap the natural skill at the level of a learned skill appropriate to each weapon type. So, for instance, you have to buy up both Shoot and Slug Weapon. The other big problem is the way Guild skills have been handled. Requiring a commission is an artificial limitation that isn't good from a role-playing standpoint. What happens if someone without a commission hires a trainer to teach him a guild skill and pays the xp for it? Does the universe prevent the knowledge from sinking into his brain? A better way to do it would have been an increased xp/character point cost to guild skills, to reflect the difficulty of learning them without guild support.

The bad:

- Format: I know some people will like the digest size, but for me personally, it is a con. I would much rather FASA followed Fantasy Flight's example. FF's RPG books are admittedly expensive, but they have very high production value. The paper is high quality and full color. The books are hard cover, with beautiful art work. FF realizes that in the modern age, they are competing against free and readily available pirated versions of their works, so they are offering production value as an incentive to purchase their product.

- Art: Most, if not all, of the art seems to have been recycled from previous FS publications. And, bizarrely, there is no map of the Known Worlds.

- Writing: I make this next criticism with all due respect. It is no easy thing to write, less so to offer the results for public consumption. Anyone who puts themselves out there as writers has my respect. That being said, the Revised Edition represents a clear decline in quality when compared to Second Edition. For example, take the Van Gelder entry on page 48. It is one of the most poorly drafted sections I have seen in a serious RPG, especially one with FS's historical focus on storytelling. In some instances, a definite article precedes "Van Gelder," in others it does not. Most sentences follow the same format: "The Van Gelder such and such" or "Most Van Gelder such and such," which makes for repetitive reading. Some of the language is just awkward ("The have become much like a ninja family..." or "Where the Van Gelder once cared almost exclusively for wealth, they have changed their goals.") or cringeworthy. This was just one example, but I could pick out others (one of the chapter stories actually uses the phrase "her sex." It was my understanding that language was pretty much limited to bad romance novels.), but that would just be pointless and mean.

- Editing: While I am not a fan of the writing, the editing is even worse. It's very hard to believe this book underwent a professional revision, or really any corrective revision at all. In several places, words are unnecessarily hyphenated, many sentences end in two periods, there is rampant misuse of "which" where the right word would be "that," and there are examples of pronoun or pluralization confusion. Now, anyone who writes in any serious capacity, whether professionally or not, will be familiar with the multitude of errors that arise almost as a matter of course. But that's why the world has editors. FASA really, really needs to hire one.

- Timeline: FASA may have moved the timeline up two years, but nothing really happened in that time. It would have been nice to see a new event. There's not even a new entry in Alustro's journal.

At the end of the day I am glad that FASA is continuing FS publication. I am still proud to recommend the game to anyone interested in a rich, thoughtful, and textured RPG. I just wish that a little more care and foresight were employed in future products.

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Angelman
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby Angelman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:12 pm

Warning, looong post.

Hi LeperColony, and thanks for the feedback! It is always very helpful when the fans take the time to tell us what they think of our products, especially when they, as you did, present their feedback in a constructive manner. I’ll answer some of the feedback where I feel competent, (I was primarily a writer and didn’t work much on the rules or editing).

I’m really glad you liked the sidebars – from what you describe it seems they have really served their intended purpose.

Skills: The “what skills go in which category” has been a discussion on all FS editions and concept development stages I’ve been involved with and people cannot agree what’s the best way of doing it. I’ve always thought that Shoot and Melee should be Natural Skills, while Archery, Throw, and Fight should be Learned Skills; the reason being that hitting someone with a stick or using a point-and-click-weapons is much more intuitive (i.e. simpler) than the others. Others are of a different opinion. I would advise that you decide for yourself what you’re the most comfortable with and stick to that. FS is by necessity adaptable, for there is no set style or genre for the game, so tweaking the game mechanics to suit your style is the best option.

Format: That’s another preference thing. Some have thought the book should be fully colored, while others laud it for its atmosphere. I prefer the b/w by a landslide – I’ve never liked full color RPGs; it’s all down to personal preference, I’m afraid. Also, FFG is a huge company compared to what we were at the time of making FSR PG, and I don’t think a high-cost game line would be possible at that time – what the future holds though, only our older selves will know ;)

Writing: I think the Minor House entries were added late in the writing, and perhaps they weren’t proofed as well as they should have – I cannot remember. When it comes to definite articles preceding house names, there is much precedence for this in FS canon; not only do House Hazat insist on calling itself “The Hazat”, other houses as well are routinely addressed with the definite article. I’ve recently done some work with the Imperial Survey books, and there you’ll often find references to “The Li Halan”, “The al-Malik”, and even “The Hawkwood”. Some authors it seems preferred the definite article even back then… I personally agree with you that this isn’t the best English, but there really is precedence for this in FS. That said, we do have an extra challenge in FSR with the fact that several of us are not native English speakers, and warped grammar tend to sneak in here and there. (I myself am Norwegian, which I am sure shows in places).

Editing: I think you’re right that there were some editing problems, but in all honesty that was not due to the work of the editors. In fact, I myself, as one of the principle writers on the FSR Players Guide, must take much of the blame there. You see, we did have a sharp deadline for the game (GenCon I think it was), and we the writer couldn’t always fulfill the tasks assigned us on time. I myself am a fiddler when it comes to RPG writing, turning over every stone and researching every reference as I write/update text, and I tend to need lots and lots of time to do my work. In the end, the editors just didn’t have enough time to give the book its due, and for that I apologize. That said, there is a new edition of the pdf coming soon and that should hopefully help a little…

Timeline: Up until FRS PG, the FS timeline followed the publication year of a given product+3000 years. Priests of the Celestial Sun was released in 1997, making the canonical year for any setting update in that book 4997; Imperial Survey 5: Decados Fiefs was released in 2001, meaning its in-game year 5001. The last HDi publications were Alien Expeditions: Orphaned Races and Imperial Survey 6: Imperial Fiefs, both in 2003, which is actually set a year after our current in-game year. And then there were loads of FS books published by RedBrick that was set in 5007 and 5008 (published in 2007 & 2008). With FSR PG we decided we the setting was speeding away from us, and officially dropped the publishing year-3000 years formula. We established the in-game year was 5002, after most of the old books, but before the lull between 2003-2007, so that we could have more control of the game time and advance the timeline more responsibly. Now, the FSR PG, the first core book of the new version of the game, start in 5002, which is actually a 3 year advance on FS2 (which was published in 1999, hence having the in-game year set to 4999). We decided it would be cooler to add timeline advancements in game products, rather than saying, “x years have passed and now the Phoenix Empire looks like this: [insert description of new events]”.

Wow, what a rant! I think that was more or less everything I wanted to say. Please do continue to offer feedback :-D

And future products will of course be awesome – hey, it is FS after all, so there is no need for modesty! 8-)
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Anunnaki
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby Anunnaki » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:45 pm


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Angelman
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby Angelman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:02 pm

Cool! I wasn't aware that it was from LotKW :-)
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby Anunnaki » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:20 pm

We wanted to include some information on the Minor Houses, rather than just a list of names, so it's a few select paragraphs from the longer entries in LotKW (or Lords & Priests, if you have the combined-book version with Priests of the Celestial Sun).

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Angelman
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby Angelman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:31 pm

I was neck deep in something-or-other with the projectat the time, so I wasn't involved in the Minor Houses bit at all. I'm very glad it made it in there though - it makes every kinds of sense :-)
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LeperColony
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby LeperColony » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:48 pm

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post. I know it can be difficult to see someone criticize something you've poured blood, sweat, and tears into, so I hope you both will accept my comments in the spirit in which they are offered. I'm a huge FS fan, and I plan on continuing to support the new Revised Edition with the same affection as the old.

Skills: I can see where different people may have different opinions vis-a-vis the division into natural and learned skills. It would not have been an absolute tragedy to simply abolish natural skills, but I do understand why there is a distinction, and I think it is defensible. The Guild Skills are a much more serious problem, in my opinion. It's a very video gamey mechanic, to say only some types of people can learn certain types of skills. Within the context of the FS universe, anyone who manages to obtain the requisite training should be able to use a "Guild" skill. Those abilities don't require a particular innate talent, like psychics. It's more about the rarity of opportunities to find competent instruction. Where the question is one of availability, the better system lies in increasing the cost/difficulty for non-guild members, rather than an outright prohibition.

Format: I do recognize that there is a large element of subjectivity in any question of design. But I think the book could still have been black and white, while evidencing a higher production value. Full size, better paper, hard bound, a map of the known worlds, these do not seem unattainable. Especially in light of the fact that production costs should have been reasonably low since some of the writing and most, if not all, of the art was recycled. I get what you are saying about company sizes, and how that limits your options. One thing to consider is how GMT, a successful wargame company, handles their upcoming products. They have a "P500" list. Basically, while designing a project, they start taking pre-orders for it, and the project isn't actually published until it receives that number of pre-orders (in this case, 500). Anyone can go on their website and track the progress of the projets. This allows GMT to produce high production value wargames, some covering quite obscure or niche time periods, in full color, with cards, counters, and maps.

FS is, at this point, firmly a niche game, however fervently we may support it, or however fondly we may hope it grows, that is likely to remain true for the foreseeable future. This means that the largest group of FS customers are current and former FS players. It would be great to attract a host of new people, and I have no doubt that the RE did manage to introduce many who hadn't known of the game before. But the heart of the FS market is the dedicated fan. Generally, given that economic model, supporters are willing to spend a little more for a higher quality product. And FS is a game that practically screams out the possibility of collector's editions products. Imagine if FASA produced the Omega Gospels, with a nice leather cover and the same shape and paper used in modern bibles. That would be a great role-playing prop. The FS universe offers numerous possibilities for products that a discerning RPG market could embrace.

Writing:

- Definite Article: Whether or not to use "Van Gelder" or "The Van Gelder" wasn't really the point I meant to make. I agree it is a matter of preference, and I take no objection to either form, as long as it is used consistently. But it isn't. Sometimes "the" is used, sometimes it isn't, in situations that are grammatically identical. In addition to more careful editing, FS needs (if it does not already have) a style sheet, so that everyone who writes for the game uses the same terms in the same way.

- Non-native English: I take no pleasure in correcting anyone, whether native English speaker or no. I don't typically quibble with people over grammatical issues, but the sheer number of errors inspired me to include the comment in my post. For non-native speakers you've done quite well, but knowing, as you do, the linguistic realities of your situation, it should have called out for even more thorough editing.

- Flavor: Of far greater concern than the grammatical errors is, to me, the relatively flat and repetitive style found in the RE. Sentence after sentence begins with exactly the same phrase, and the exact same format. X is doing Y. X has Y quality. X hopes/plans Y for the future. It quickly wears on you, when everything sounds the same.

Timeline: I certainly understand where you are coming from, and indeed I'm glad there wasn't a galaxy-shaping event in the RE, because I think the current period of uncertainty is fairly interesting. But I would have liked to have seen *something*. The stirrings of a religious controversy (perhaps a 51st Century Martin Luther?), the fall of a merchant guild (I could see the Scravers losing some kind of turf war, becoming split, and joining the Muster and/or Charioteers), an imperial engagement. Anything other than "well, it's one year later and everything is exactly the same (there isn't even a new Alustro's journal! That is almost unforgivable), thanks for the 35 bucks." I have no doubt you guys have some interesting ideas for us to enjoy in the future. I just would have liked a little something in the new core book.


I have other issues with certain sections (the way life paths were done, for one), but I don't want to sound like a negative Nancy. Nothing I say should detract from the respect I hold towards everyone on the FS development staff, and the appreciation I feel for all your hard work in keeping one of my favorite games alive.

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Angelman
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby Angelman » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:59 am

I have to keep to a short reply this time. (I’m at work)

Skills: The Guild Contract thing was there in FS2 as well. I typically ignore it in my campaign when a player can reasonably explain why s/he has access to restricted knowledge. (I.e. "I have the pilot skill because I'm a pilot, even though I've never belonged to a guild. My teacher was my father, and his teacher was his father").

Format: Issues noted. The smaller size we knew would be criticized, but I for one am very enthusiastic about it (although I haven’t seen a printed copy yet).

Writing: Points taken. Improving the language can only be a good thing.

Timeline: We would have been beaten up if we introduced a big, sudden setting alteration, but I get that you’d like to see something fresh. There is the matter of the Patriarch being on his farewell tour of the Known Worlds – that should give you some hint to one possible conflict brewing ;)
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Angelman
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Re: Long time FS player's impressions of Revised Edition

Postby Angelman » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:26 am

Oh, and by the way. Alustro is Bill Bridges' thing and we couldn't have done it justice even if we were allowed to try. Unfortunately, Bill was not available to do another entry. Instead we opted for new flavor texts :)
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