Languages and reading fs player's guide

Discussion on the Fading Suns game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
MBdS
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Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby MBdS » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:46 am

Just bought the new player's guide online from drivetheu and creating new characters for a new epic. Apart feom various errata we found like before outline, one question regarded the reading/writing ability of the characters. Since the skills and Read and Speak have been removed in favor of the new benefit Languages, what about characters read/write akills? All characteres are now assumed to be able to read/write every language they know?
If so shouldnt be somewhere a new Illiterate affliction to deal with characters who cant read (costing maybe +2 points). the text from Languages benefit seems to intend it now works this way, but it also seems this Illiterate affliction has been missing from the book.

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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby Bogie » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:50 pm

Wow I really slacked on checking the page here. Sorry!

It is assumed that once a character knows a language they can read/write it as well. I know that is a bit unrealistic in real life but I think is a good compromise between rules and play.

That said, adding an affliction like that is a great idea if a player has a great concept and being illiterate would have an effect on the game you plan on running.

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MBdS
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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby MBdS » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:17 pm

it has no effect on the first campaign i'm running.
but with second group i started this week it could be an interesting affliction to explore (it's a Lost World with a very Fantasy-feeling, like Fading Suns dropped in the Dark Sun world of Athas with a bit of Dragonlance dropped in.... calling it Dragons of a Fading Dark Sun).

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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby Gannok » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:54 pm

I would not assume that characters who learn to speak a language can read and write it as well. The game has clearly defined itself as being one of low literacy levels. It is a Dark Age after all. The rules separated the ability to speak a language from reading it since the first edition and continued that into the 2nd edition as well. Even the current edition, if not explicitly than implicitly, tells you that they are still very separate skills. Why else would you have a language bar on the character sheet that has check marks for reading and writing? Now I would not begrudged someone from saying as a house rule that if you can speak it you can read it, to each their own. I'm just pointing out that the game has separated these two skills for the last 15+ years on purpose.

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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby ragnarol » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:34 am


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angelicmadrigal
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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby angelicmadrigal » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:22 pm


MBdS
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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby MBdS » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:29 am

Hei Gannok, listening to the developer it seems they changed the rule in Revised Edition.
it's fun thinking how it developed. 1st edition you had to buy levels from 1 to 9 for each language and to read it.
2nd edition you had to buy speak and read separately, and now they're merged.
it seems, looking at revised edition that they tried to make all the characters more skillfull in the wits field, while asking to be more precise in the combat field. so much less wasting points to be a knowledgeable persone into skills that rarely come into play (even if Lore skills still needs specialization)
not really i'm happy at seeing somebody with Physical Science know everything from Physics to Meterology to Geology, but in the end, it helps making those skills really useful when called into play, so i bear with it. I assume PC are better than others, and i'm fine with it.

in my game i dropped also Energy Guns/Slug Guns into Shoot and Artifact Melee/Melee into Melee distinction... players complained and didn't really need the extra details for the game we are playing. like i said elsewhere the system has enough holes that you may modify it without ruining the feeling :)

but if we stay by the rule... yes, in revised edition you read and write just acquiring the appropriate language skill :)

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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby Gannok » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:51 am

The Original levels one was stupid, but I liked the buying it and being done one. While I do appreciate the level of detail the levels gives, it's unnecessary in my opinion. It gets in the way too much. The literacy element, for me at least, has less to do with mechanics and more to do with the feel of the world. Most peasants can't read, and this is by intention and law in many places, yet this new rule says that all peasants can now read. I dislike that. So for me, they will always be separate.

The energy guns/slug guns one, I have a love/hate relationship with. It solved a problem I've had with the old system, but created a slightly less annoying new one. Previously, if my Tech 3 character got a hold of a Tech 6 blaster, he could use it, but at huge penalties. The way that the new system works is that knowing the skills also gives you the ability to use it regardless of tech and allows you basic maintenance as well. That solved the tech issue, but now we have 2 separate skills. While annoying, I can justify it by saying energy guns work on different principles of physics than slug guns. Knowing that a laser isn't affected in the same way by gravity and wind resistance as a solid slug helps.

I think the thing that I've seen that annoys me the most right now are the durations on Theurgy/Psi. Previously they were Instant, a couple of turns, an hour, perpetual. Now it's Instant, 1 or 2 turns, 3 to 5 turns, a minute, a few minutes, perpetual. That is ridiculous. Now abilities that should last a span, such as being able to see in the dark, now last like a couple minutes at best.

MBdS
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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby MBdS » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:23 pm

I dont like peasants to be able to read, so i assume only player characters automatically can do it. Being a skill and points based system i really dont need to detail all the npc character sheet, so i assume they can do what i need them to do, without doing any kind of countability. Maybe just for recurring npcs, but even there best to leave players in the dark.

Theurgy/Psi produces headaches everytime i look at a power/rite. It seems in three edition it has never really being playtested, just yesterday we were wondering how much damage, if any, prophet's projected flame or torchbearing do... I just could assume they did fire damage like a 3d torch, but it is just an assumotion (and it seems lame for a 6 level rite doing just 3d fire damage). Bah...

Regarding slug guns/energy, i scoffed the skill description and went back to the old shoot, leaving maintenance to Tech Redemption and Tech characteristics. Shoot is your aim, you point, click, enemy goes down. Why it happens? Need Tech to know. weapon jams? Need Tech Redemption to fix it. Luckily the system is so flexible that it really dosent break with such a change.

Now if only i could come up with something for that Ride skill and its use.

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Re: Languages and reading fs player's guide

Postby Angelman » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:53 am

Dang! I wrote a lengthy reply, but the computer decided to kill it. Oh well, I'll go again with a shorter one.

Peasants reading: This is a culture thing, really. In the Protestant West, peasants were routinely literate (enough to read the Bible) from TL2 times onwards. And there's a FS planet that I just read about (can't remember which as I have been reading a lot of the Imp. Surveys lately) where even peasants get state founded schooling. Literacy depends on a lot of factors. If you don't want some peoples in your game to be able to read, then don't let them. Making illiteracy an Affliction is a good fix though.

Torchbearing/Prophet's Projected Flame: These are not fireball spells (FSR doesn't really have those); they are practical things to roleplay with. They burn with the intensity of the fuel you ignite (as is described in the Torchbearing rite text), and trying to use it as a weapon would be as effective as setting fire to your enemy with a lighter or candle. Now, if one is smart (i.e. rolepays it) and sets fire to an enemy's ammo, that's another matter entirely.

Shoot+Tech: It is fine that you don’t like this pairing, and you’re interpretation of using Shoot as a targeting skill only, leaving all repair matters to Tech Redemption is good. These things are a matter of taste. (For the record, I use Shoot as a general “gun” skill, including pairing Shoot+Wits to device some information from the guns carried by that Hawkwood Baron, or Perception+Shoot to notice that someone has fiddled with your gun – its just a mater of taste). Let me point out that the “new” way of doing this in FSR isn’t new at all, but was how it was suggested in the FS2 (and FS1 I imagine) rules as well.

Gannok/Energy Guns: I see your point that two skills might be a bit of a points sink. They are both point-and-click skills, but there the similarities end. Fore the same reason there is a separate Archery skill. An argument could be made, however, that you have one Shoot skill with several specializations, or even that you buy Blessings to offset penalties for using Energy guns with the Shoot skills, but that’s too complicated for the basic rules I feel.

The rules in general: FSR (and indeed all versions of FS) have never been meant as fixed rules; they are rules toolkits for people to do with as they please. Now, there is perhaps the main problem for the rules as they almost demand individual GMs tweaking them to fit their purpose, but having such “loose” rules are required for a game where the genre and style isn’t set. You need a different set of rules for gritty compared to swashbuckler, and another one for epic heroism, and FSR presents a general set of rules for you to use as they best fit your game. (That’s why there are several “GMs should feel free to do things differently” sidebars in the book – there could be many more, but at some point we developers went, “alright, they’ve got it already… lets use the space for other things”).

Cavalry: I agree that this should be covered by the rules. The arguments voiced here for doing so are sound. There is a rule suggested under the Spear entry (p287) however: Longer and sturdier lances are particularly effective when used by or against mounted cavalry, in which case the mount’s Strength is added to the lance wielder’s for the purpose of determining Damage Bonus (p. 93). Note, that the mount’s Strength is [also] added to a [spear-wielding] footman’s Strength against the mount’s rider! Is this sufficient, do you guys think?
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