Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

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Banjo666
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Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Banjo666 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:38 pm

OK, I am starting this new thread which is not about whether Earthdawn has rules for co-operative action, or needs them, but is purely concerned with "sky blue" thinking just to see if it is possible to come up with some brief rules to cover situations where co-operation "in game" is possible. We might be able to come up with something that could be included as an optional rule in some future edition of Earthdawn but again maybe not. So this is purely an intellectual exercise.

Firstly, if you think the current lack of co-operation rules is just fine, or that it is best all left up to the GM, please do not state this in this thread.
This thread is purely about how co-operation might work in Earthdawn.


Secondly, I think we must define what we mean by co-operative tasks. I think these fall into two main areas.
1. Co-operation that reduces time, for example, building a house, ship or kaer.
2. Co-operation that improves performace, for example, sailing a ship (air or water) or breaking down a door.
If you can think of other situations please add them.

What I do not think is needed is any rules for co-operation on combat, this is already covered by the combat rules and players actions.

Although strictly not a co-operative action, rules for mass combat, be it between to small tribes or large (by Earthdawn armies standards) armies would be a nice addition, especially if individual character actions can influence the result.

Now I think a good way to approach this is to come up with some examples and, if possible, some possible solutions to "in game" co-operative tasks. Once we have a number of these, with possibly different solutions, and have had a chance to comment, we can look at refining these to a brief set of rules ?

To get the ball rolling I will relist my solution for Air Sailing rolls:
As an air sailing example how about instead of making individual rolls, as written under the current Air Sailor Talent,, we say the Captain rolls his Air Sailing Step and adds a modifier of +1 for each crew member assisting. In the case of a Drakkar this is +29. So in calm weather with no outside factors any Air Sailing rolls are automatically made. Now the Drakkar enters combat, some of the crew are assigned to fire the weapons, other to repel boarders so the number that can atually assist the Captain is reduced so say he now has the assistance of 12 crew, his rolls are much harder to make, especially if he is trying some fancy tactics.

So comments on this are welcome, as well as other examples of possible co-operative tasks with or without solutions.

Cheers, Chris

Hank Woon
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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Hank Woon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:23 am

I'm not sure if this was brought up in the other thread, but there is precedence for the reduction of time (see Terror in the Skies and the crash of the... ship that crashes... can't remember the name right now... Obsidian Flyer, maybe? Was that the one...?). Anyway, battling fire, the more who help reduces time it takes to put it out, etc.

Banjo666
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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Banjo666 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:20 am

Hmmm, had a quick look at Terror in the Skies and although it talks about fires and ships on fire there are no, that I could find from my quick scan, any actually rules for putting them out... but thnks for the input :-)

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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Telarus_KSC » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:53 am


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Flowswithdrek
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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Flowswithdrek » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:07 am

From memory the ship in question is the Crimson Dawn. The Obsidian Flyer is one of Juliak Merris' other ships, and there is as far as i can remember a paragraph or two on how the cooperative actions of the player characters can reduce the time to dig a fire break to stop the fire spreading to the rest of Travar.

Doh didn't see the end of Telarus' post

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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Mataxes » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:06 pm

Hrm. Looking at your example, going with a flat +1 per hepler/crew is a simple enough way to do it, but it can get kind of ridiculous (e.g. is there a limit to how much "help" you can get), and doesn't address how "skilled" the helpers are. It also doesn't really mesh with the existing rules for airships (which already assume multiple people trying to accomplish a task).

Per the Air Sailing talent, a character needs a 5 or better to count as a crew for the purposes of a given task/maneuver on a ship (higher result levels mean they count as more people). 50% of the crew needs to succeed each hour to keep the ship moving/perform basic maneuvers, and the size of the crew (per the stats in the GM Companion) tells you how many crew there are. Let's assume they all have rank 1 Air Sailing (which means they likely have an Air Sailing step of 5-7 depending on race -- let's take the middle ground of 6 since all but orks have a minimum Willpower step of 5).

The basic statistics of the step system tell us that if all the crew are step 5, half of them will get 5 or better on their test. Our example crew will actually be slightly above that (Step 6 = 60% of the crew will get 5 or better). Let's take the small drakkar from pg 71 of the GMC. (Crew size 15, Captain Rating 4).

Stay afloat: 25% of 15 = 3.75 (round up to 4)
Standard: 50% of 15 = 7.5 (round up to 8)
Harder: 75% of 15 = 11.25 (round up to 12)

Assuming 15 crew and Step 6, 60% (or 9) will get a 5 or better. The Captain (again assuming minimum) has Step 9, and will count as 2 extra crew (avg test of 9 is good result against a DN 5). This makes the total 11. This crew should be able to handle standard operations pretty easily -- maneuvers at altitude, climb/dive in a straight line. Even more difficult maneuvers aren't really out of reach (our number put us just shy of the mark -- only one extra result level puts you over the 75% mark).

Assuming the Captain is alive and in charge (and thus counting as 2 crew), you need 8 "active" crew to do basic maneuvers, 8-2 = 6... which is 60% of 10. 4 "active" crew keeps the ship in the air, 4-2 = 2... which is 60% of 4.

10 crew would be the minimum complement for basic operations. and 4 to simply keep the ship in the air. This is all assuming minimum Air Sailing of 1 -- a more experienced crew would have an even easier time.

This is all from the existing rules, without any tests being rolled. Since you came to the same conclusion in your example (no test needed), I come to the question, "What does your rule do that isn't already there?"
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn

Banjo666
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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Banjo666 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:38 pm


Banjo666
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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Banjo666 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:44 pm


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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Banjo666 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:11 pm

As for the crash of the Crimson Dawn and the fire fighting, I think you have discovered a variant of the time related co-operative task. This is where the task is to co-ordinate the actions of a group were the result is time critical, as opposed to just, for example, building a ship where all you are really interested in is finding how long it takes.

My suggestion, for what it is worth, to simplify the "build fire break" test is that a PC with an appropriate "leadership" type talent/skill makes the roll helped by the available assistants. Now you could handle this, by setting the target number high and require say, an extraordinary result to build the firebreak. If you don't achieve an extraordinary result, add your result level to the next rounds roll (average +1, good +2 etc..) until the firebreak is made or not.

With the time critical test you are trying to see if the task can be completed within the time allowed as opposed to just seeing how long it will take. Rolling an extraordinary result on your first roll does not mean the firebreak was built in one round, just that it was successfully built in the time allowed with probably time to spare.

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Re: Co-Operative Actions Mark 2

Postby Mataxes » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:29 pm

Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn


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