Let's Talk About Forge

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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Panda
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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Panda » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:04 pm

As of right now, it is eight hours a day for seven days (I believe I replaced "week" with seven days). Giving variable times based on size makes it a little too fiddly and not enough like a ritual. One which doesn't care what you are working with, but it must be done in the way Weaponsmiths have been doing for generations upon generations. The other way feels more like scheduling your Toyota for a timing belt replacement and new spark plugs - just fit it into the schedule and let me plug in the radiator flush and the distributer cap replacement around it.

Now, those are my Thoughts and how to explain the thought process behind the mechanics. How it functions are your table should absolutely be up to you. One of the things about ED that I quite like is the down time. It emphasizes a different pace. Rather than a frenetic action and rushing everywhere, there are times when you spend a while in one location and can make some connections. It gives the world time to breathe and grow.

Again, that's just me. If you want a faster pace and find the times listed don't work for you - change them.
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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Sundahk » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:00 pm


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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Henghyoke » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:13 pm

Some other random considerations:

1) Allow a Weaponsmith to use Forge Weapon on a maximum number of weapons per week equal to his Talent Rank.
2) Reduce the time required to perform the ritual forging by one day per +1 increase to the Difficulty Number (maximum of +3). This is in line with the ED1 "Taking Extra Time" rule, just reversed.
Last edited by Henghyoke on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Mataxes » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:27 pm

+15 will be an exceptionally rare bonus -- it requires a Weaponsmith with Rank 15 Forge Weapon (remember the maximum bonus is the smith's rank). I don't know about you, but somebody with this level of mastery should be in high demand, and getting them to do some work would probably be an adventure/goal all on its own. How many Circle 13-15 Weaponsmiths do you think there are?

The idea is that weapons with bonuses in the +1 to +4 range will be relatively common among adepts and higher ranking mundanes (military officers, that kind of thing). Bonuses in the +5 to +8 range will be less common, mainly because there are fewer smiths out there that are capable of that level of work (or as dedicated . +9 and up.... that is some impressive work.

And the time commitment being bandied about here is looking at the (IMO) somewhat ludicrous idea of going from zero forging to +15. I don't see this as a particularly likely scenario; the ritual can grant a bonus of +1 to +4 or more (based on success level), no higher than the smith's rank. Is this a potential issue for PC smiths? If the thought is for him to forge everybody's weapons as much as he can... then perhaps he should work out with his companions what he is getting in exchange for spending so much time on their stuff instead of his own.

I mean, when all is said and done it is your game, and if you want to cut down on the time required, feel free. However, the idea is that the bonus resulting from Forge Weapon (and Forge Armor) is the result of a magical ritual, and that it should represent an investment of some kind -- in this case, time.
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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Utsukushi » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:13 pm


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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Mataxes » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:49 am

Let me rephrase that, then.

People are talking as if during every bit of downtime the Weaponsmith is going to forge everybody's weapon as high as possible, and how much time that will take. That is the assumption I'm challenging.

(Much like the argument that going from zero bonus to +15 forge will take a long time... well, yeah, that's kind of the point. It isn't really something that is intended to be done all at once -- though if you have a smith with a high enough rank, toss some karma in there... Attribute Step 8 + Rank 15 + d8 Karma.... you're talking about an average result of around 28 -- five successes is easily doable against the starting DN of 6 -- you're a third of the way there already.)

If time is an issue, you will need to prioritize. Maybe this stretch of downtime the smith will forge the Warrior's sword, next time the Scout's, and the next time their own. If time is not an issue... why does it matter how long it will take?
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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Sundahk » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:12 am

Forging a weapon from 0 to X will happen again now that it works on Threaded Weapons. Warrior finds a magic sword, takes it to a Rank 6 smithy, and if he's got the money and at least six weeks up his sleeve (probably more like seven or eight if the smithy takes his own downtime in between) gets it forged. Why wouldn't he try to get it forged as high as he can in one go? But if you're changing Forge Weapon to allow extra success to reduce time and add extra Steps damage then I guess this helps.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with the week long ritual. It makes sense. It's the hours involved I'm not comfortable with. I guess I'm skewed towards the view from the Weaponsmith player, which is why 8 hours day no more no less, seems like too much.

Firstly he has to find a Forge. In our game the Weaponsmith is only 3rd Circle so hasn't raised the money to buy his own. Often a local smithy will allow the Weaponsmith to use his forge on the weekend or will accept a significant amount of silver to vacate the forge for the day, maybe two. The Weaponsmith has little choice but to bump up the TN (I don't know what the minimum days will be, but based on what Panda wrote it's +25 to the TN if he wants to smash it out in two days), to make use of the Forge while he can. He could try to rent the forge out for a week but I think the smithy would be a bit more reluctant to give up his forge for that long ("You need my forge for how long? I've got horses to shoe and hoes to fix dammit!")

Secondly, with this new FW version, yes, the Weaponsmith's team mates will hound him to increase their weapon's damage Step each time he puts his FW up a Rank. He can't leave the forge except to eat, toilet, and conversations so it leaves little or no time for the adventuring Weaponsmith to do anything else.

Maybe I'm not allowing enough downtime for these characters. I don't know. Whenever they stop to train, shop, forge, whatever, my players usually already have a motivation and sense of urgency to move to the next adventure (who else is going to be heroes?). I try to allow them time to do what they need/want, but my thinking is "Barsaive doesn't stop just because they do".

Anyway, it seems pointless giving any more input on these official rules changes if the response is 'if they don't work for you - change them'. You're going to change Forge Weapon to whatever you want. And that's fine. I trust you will do a great job with it and look forward to seeing the result. Best of luck! :)

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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby sirserafin » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:35 am


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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby shiinx » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:55 am

ED3 increased the karma step by 1 for very high circles. And Mataxas is probably talking about Circle 15 adepts in his example.

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Re: Let's Talk About Forge

Postby Slimcreeper » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:18 am

I've never really had the bookkeeping skills to say that the forging happened on the 15th of Riag last year, and so now it is about to run out . . . the year and a day time frame wasn't something I could keep up with - or at least wasn't interested in keeping up with - for a half-dozen different weapons. I barely keep up with my kid's birthdays. My understanding is that a weapon smith would take the weapon, work on it for a week, and it's duration is extended for a year-and-a-day (one yaad, if you will)? He does this for 4-6 weapons and that's a month and a half gone every single year? I'm down with downtime, but that is a lot. It makes sense to me that she could forge more than one at a time.

Also, I would rather see the weapon smith invest some special ingredients (true elements is the obvious answer) each forging to make it permanent. I know that makes them more lootable, is that a problem?


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