A question of nobility and title

[Bertjammin]

What would happen in a situation where a noble heir, not yet of age or entitlement is knighted by a House other than their own?

Perhaps they come of age whilst away from home, in the care of an allied House or relations within a different House or perhaps are a prisoner of a rival House, and the ruling lord or lady knights them (as a reward or part of a greater scheme). Does their knighthood make them part of the lord's House (as their title is granted by their host)?

What would happen when they return home? If they are granted a family title then can they retain both? I.e. could they potentially be a knight in one House and a Baron in another?

And how early could a child be given title (I.e. knighted)? I know the standard is 17 years but are there examples of earlier than this?

[Holz]

Hum...
I don't know if a rival or allied house would knight or give a title to some others house noble. Sounds confusing.
Unless you wanted to gain some advantage over this, like a wedding or child making a house union.

Or a stolen noble child, raised as rival and only at his/her knighthood, discovers the truth! *Tan tan tan!!!!* <insert dramatic sound effect>

I know that the Hazat have some young knights, like 14 years of age. My guess is in time of need or next in succession line, as old as 10, may take the knighthood.

[Bertjammin]

The storyline I'm working with is that Hose Hawkwood give a Justinian boy (third in line in his family so not likely to inherit a great deal) a knighthood in order to a) gain his trust and loyalty (impressing on him that *they* think he's a grown up) b) to tick off his family and remind them who is the Royal House around here... c) they need the boy to enable them to bring armed men onto Justinian lands without causing an immediate military response.

[Angelman]

Here’s my two Talons on the matter.

Mixing noble lines occurs often when people of different houses marry. What titles/ranks the individuals gain/retain is probably determined by negotiations and contract beforehand, but one of the spouses joins the ranks other's house, in effect becoming a [insert house name]. (By analogy, in GoT Catelyn Tully becomes Catelyn Stark upon marrying Rob Stark, and is no longer a member of House Tully even though she has family there).

Now, about "knighting". There is some confusion here. The verb, "to knight", is used for two primary functions, a) to rise a commoner into the noble class, and b) to initiate a noble (usually) into a knightly order.

Therefore, your Justinian couldn't be "knighted" in the first meaning unless he has not received a knighthood form hos birth house (which happens). If he hasn't been knighted back home, then he's not an official noble of House Justinian (although he belongs to the family similarly to a bastard), and should House Hawkwood chose to rise him to their ranks there would be no official conflict of interest.

There is one complication here, however, and that is the case in which a noble scion IS knighted by his birth house, but that title is not recognized elsewhere (as might happen with House D'Rouge Glace nobles outside of Li Halan territory). In that case, the noble would probably have to relinquish any previous claims to be allowed into a more prestigious family, or, if the reverse is the case, accept integration into the new house, but conveniently forget about it when he comes back home (i.e. if Paul Atreides wanted to go back home to Caladan after joining with the Fremen, before he becomes Emperor and can do whatever he please – and lets for a moment assume the Fremen was a noble faction – he might have ‘forget’/hide that he has become a Fremen to keep good relations with any House Atreides relatives on Caladan.

More likely in your case, the Justinian noble has been knighted back home and therefore cannot officially BECOME a Hawkwood except through marriage or adoption (in which case the old titles are usually forfeit). He could become a member of a Hawkwood household (as is very common for Minor House nobles), holding prestigious positions and even military rank, although he wouldn’t be accepted as part of the bloodline (i.e. he’s not a Hawkwood nobleman).

Your Justinian could, however, be initiated into a knightly order of House Hawkwood, becoming a “Knight of the Order of the Rampant Lion” or whatever (I cannot remember any explicitly Hawkwoodian knightly orders, but there are sure to be loads of them). This would not make him a scion of House Hawkwood in any way, although it would gain him prestige in their circles. He would probably also be given some sort of retainer/household position with a Hawkwood patron. Actually, in historic (and even contemporary) terms, nobles have frequently racked up knightly order memberships all over the world, and for instance the Hungarian “Order of the Dragon” inducted nobles from all over Europe (including Vlad the Impaler’s father), and my own king – King Harald V of Norway – is member of around 50 orders from all around the world, as is any other contemporary noble person that you can name (and loads of others too).

Therefore, in conclusion, your Justinian boy has probably entered a Hawkwood chivalry order rather than ‘switched houses’, unless he’s marrying into the fold of the Blue Lion that is.

[Bertjammin]

Great response - thanks Angelman.

I think my confusion came that I didn't imagine children of the houses to be "born into" their titles initially - i.e. that they only became recognised as "sir" or "Lady" once they come of age (as represented in the FS Lifepath with a noble character only gaining the Rank Benefice when they reach the Career (early adult) stage.

[Angelman]

Absolutely. Technically, no one is born to a noble title, they must be conveyed by peers/society. Of course, some heir apparents are alloted titles and ranks even before their born (for various political reasons), but an noble person's offspring doesn't inherit the parent's titles until s/he takes over after that parent. That said, nobles love teir titles just as much as officers love their medals and ribbons, and there are likely to be loads and loads of effectively empty titles and ranks out there that nobles stock up on for prestige (rather than power). Also, influential parents will often invent titles for their offspring, although one must be careful to only create titles that will be recognized by other nobles, or else it is rather pointless. So, a Count could possibly issue baronies for all his children, as long as enough peers supported it.

In FS thought, the rank "knight" seems to be tied to a coming of age kind of thing, a kind of graduation to noble adulthood if you please. (This is a bit simplified, but I think it works well for a game). There are probably many nobles who are never officially knighted (in the meaning, bestowed with the rank of "knight"), and they will likely hold positions akin to bastards or possibly even a freeman (which is even less prestigious). (Note that although the LifePath system forces you to be officially inducted into your faction, the free-form system allows you to chose not to - you may perfectly well create a count's son who holds no official rank, perhaps because all the power and titles have been allotted older/privileged siblings).

So, in conclusion, a legitimate Hawkwood is always a Hawkwood (i.e. belongs to the Hawkwood family/bloodline), although without being bestowed a knighthood he would not be an official noble of that house. (And he might prefer to, or even be required to, present himself without the "Hawkood" suffix to the name).

[Bertjammin]

At the moment (plot wise) I just need the Justinian recognised as a noble with authority in his family's lands - as such the "knighting" issue becomes moot (based upon the clarification that he has status without yet having "come of age"). Interesting discussion though

[Angelman]

Ok, I'm not sure I got this right...
The Justinian character has not yet been awareded a knighthood with his native House Justinian. For the reasons you stated, some Hawkwood patrons inducts him into one of their prestigious knightly orders (lets call it "Order of the Lion Rampant"). Well, this is really almost identical to what Alexius is doing with his Questing Knights, where 'foreign' nobles are given Imperial prestige and privilege by inducting them into the "Order of the Phoenix", in return for cross-faction loyalty to the Emperor. (There is a difference in that Alexius is, alegedly, trying to forge a new noble house for himself, but until that happens the analogy sticks). The Justinian knight of the Hawkwood order's relationship with this birth house and home realm would depend on a great many things, such as the power-difference between his family and the Hawkwood patron(s), the local relationship between the two houses, the character's behavior as a Knight of the Lion Rampant (i.e. does he lord his status over his un-priveleged cousins?), what the Hawkwood patron(s)'s do with the new Justinian lackey, and so on. There is no hard and fast rule - the knighthood could literally be anything from a dire catastrophy to political salvation for the Justinian family. In and off itself the knighthood has no consequence beyond whatever context it exists in (unless initiation comes with secret insights and actual political power - i.e. "all knights of the Order of the Trout Pants are eligible to vote in Delphian Council of Knights" or whatever).

As for how old a character needs to be to be knighted, I do not believe there are any definite rules. It would probably be uncommon for a child to be awarded the rank (and responcibility) of adulthood, but by Medieval analogy it would be far from unheard of. Still, "Knight" is very much a previleged warrior rank - or at least it is meant to be - so a nilly-willy induction of children into the rank is unlikely. What if the local patron needs to raise an army and calls upon "all knights of the realm to muster their armament and men-at-arms"? Few would want to risk their 10-year-old to get entangled with warfare, however remote the possibility.

In short, induction into knighthood COULD occur at any age, although the late teens is the most likely. (Inheriting a more prestigious title might occur much earlier, as history as shown us, but that's another matter - a matter of political necessity rather than personal reward).

[Bertjammin]

Suspecting that at least one of my players reads the forums, I'm not going into full details I'm afraid...

But I understand and agree with everything you say. "it depends..." has frequently been the beginning of my answer to a lot of question my players have posed about the setting and this is one of those times. I guess I was looking to see if there were any published precedents I ought to be aware of.

Essentially I have a situation where a young (pre-coming of age) Justinian noble who *will* be a knight when he comes of age, is being used as a political tool by a group of powerful Hawkwoods. They don't *need* to knight him but they need him to be assured of their "good intentions" so are pampering his ego a bit.

"Why don't your family think you are ready for your knighthood? Of course you are man enough! Here, let us induct you into <obscure and possibly obsolete order>. See how much we respect & trust you? Now be a good fellow and do as we say....."

[Angelman]

I suggest you let the Hawkwood patrons promise the Justinian pawn the world. Induct him into some fancy (but impotent) order, praise his skills and beauty (or whatever), betroth him to a young Hawkwood flower well above his standing (without necesarrily ever intenting to following this up with an actual marriage), and generally make themselves indispencible to the young Justinian. Even IF the Justinian suspect he is being groomed and lured, he can do nothing but eat out of his patron's hands as the stakes are too high. His smartest move would be to work hard to deserve at least some of the privileges his Royal House patrons are lavishing upon him, which is of course exactly what the Hawkwoods want. In time, even his family - or factions of it - may come to encourage and cultivate the player character's Hawkwood connections.

And yeah, in a game such as FS, "it depends" is always the default answer