Earthdawn: Feedback (For ED Team)

[spiritual]

Hi all.

I have been playing Earthdawn (on and off) since 1st edition and think its a GREAT GAME and love the history, races and the system. However I do have some feedback for anyone involved in the game design process, some things I hope would change with new editions of the game.

1. Horrors: Having both played in games, and run games as GM I have noticed Earthdawn has a lot of (Named Horrors) these been the named, big, legendary and often very powerful horrors that are the stuff of legend. However what ED seems to lack is lower end / cannon fodder horrors and I know from experience that this put certain GM's off as it leaves them in a tight position of having to always create their own horrors, especially in lower circles of the game.

If you look in the current ED3 GM Guide (and) the ED3 GM Companion (and) the old Horrors book you will notice even a lot of the "minor horror" are ranked at 4th, 5th and even 6th circle, and there are only a handful of small horrors / horror constructs aimed at 1st, 2nd, 3rd circles, and honestly that does make it VERY HARD for new GM's to get into the game. As a GM I would love to see a LOT MORE horrors and lower end basic creatures that can be used for larger encounters, for example killing a "named horror" is great, but sometimes your players want the rush of facing 50 or 60 creatures or been chased down by an unbeatable force or swarm.

I would recommend to anyone designing this game that (a lot more) lower end small horrors are added (starship trooper style) in some respects, you know lots more small bug or insect like horrors, dog sized, cow or bear sized, lower end cannon fodder aimed at the first 3 to 4 circles of the game (especially circles 1 and 2) I would personally like to see a much bigger arsenal and list of horrors, the type that are not legendary named horrors but your normal run of the mill pest or swarm like horrors, and feel this would greatly help in large encounters and would also help GM's into the game especially over the first 3 circles, more lower end horrors for the win.


2. Equipment List: I feel this is another area of ED that I would love to see worked on, as while the equipment is good and you have various new ideas that other games don't use, the list themselves have always been a little small. If you sat down with around 5 equipment books from other systems you will often find loads of equipment ideas that have never touched the ED list, and most of this is basic good equipment ideas that further add to the game and the players experience of the game. In my eyes after running many games in various RPG systems I will say that players do enjoy "building their character" and a big part of that is often equipment, special items, things they need to save for, and think a bigger selection would increase interest from players.

The weapons lists are not bad but the general lists, the food lists, and the more rare or special items lists are a bit small, this impact is probably felt most on the (general list) rope, chalk and things like that. That list (in my opinion) is way to small and think it should go into a lot more detail, perhaps be twice the size and hold various other item ideas even just basic ones. I also think there should be a much more advanced food, wine and beer shopping list so that player get more of a feel for whats the land produces, as silly as it sounds their should be a greengrocer of Barsaive section containing a fairly full food and drink list.

This would allow players more choice and engage them further into the game. I think the equipment type lists should be a lot bigger, there should be more basic items, more food and drink items, more rare items and basically more choice all round to help keep a long lasting interest in the game and so players have more equipment choices to build their character upon. In my eyes A LOT MORE equipment on the ED lists would be a great idea. If I am a player I don't want to look at a list of basic gear and think (I can afford all of that in 4 circles) I want to look at the list and think (wow I'm never going to afford all of that') I want to have to think about what my character buys and what options they make, I want to decide if I'm going to buy rope, or silk rope, or Servos Jungle vine rope, or crystal weave rope or whatever, I want to look at the list and have to THINK about what my character is buying, not get faced by only the most basic of choices.

I would strongly vote for more equipment in ED it helps engage players, it keeps goals fresh, it aids building characters, it also gives them more choice on the level of item they want to buy, do they want a "pipe" or do they want a "luxury gold sealed pipe" or do they want a "crystal pipe" and if so do they want to smoke Throalic Dempa Tobacco, or Theran Habadash leaf, in my eyes the more equipment choices not only makes goals possible and engages players but it adds spice, color and variety to the world.

As a GM in Earthdawn you often hear these words.

"I want a XXXXXXXXX..... But its not in the book"

For example.

I want to buy a Padlock.... But its not in the book
I want to buy a Mirror..... But its not in the book
I want to buy a Chest to hide my loot in.... But its not in the book
I want to buy a barrel to hide this body in... But its not in the book

Then you face the question. I don't just want a normal lock, or normal mirror, I want a posh expensive (best on the market) one, and as GM this often leaves you having to make up items on the spot and also prices, availability, and function of that item. I don't mind this as such but it does get annoying when players (in one market trip) ask for 3 or 4 things that are not even in the book, are we are talking basic items like locks, chests, mirrors, tea brewing equipment, pipes and so on, all basic equipment that could easily be added to ED. I can not see how a bigger amount of basic items would affect game play, sadly a Crystal pipe or expert padlock might look nice but its not going to help you kill a great dragon is it, but sure it would flesh out the land and the character more, it would allow more player building space and interest.


3. MAPS: While the original ED map does cover a lot of space (in miles and distance) some would argue that the map looks small on paper, by all means I don't mind an increase into new areas (Thera, The Savage North, The East) and so on. But been honest I picked up the book for Cathy and was shocked at the map (sorry to say I think it looks really bad) it does not even keep in with the original artwork of the first map. I actually tried fitting them both together and it kind of looks like you walk from one map into t totally new world. I would suggest if any future maps are edited or added that you can lay them together and form a world made of the same map style. By all means add new oceans, new cursed islands, new strange alien like ruins or whatever you want but please keep the maps the same so we can fit them together and can tell where we are ect.


Overall ED is a great game, I'd like to see it increased further.

[Penagain]

First of all thank you for your feedback! One of the things I love about Earthdawn is that I know the developers see, read, listen, and consider all of this feedback very seriously. What follows are my reactions to your suggestions, and they are certainly not the opinions of the entire team! I'm just the mouthiest person awake at this particular hour

I would like to address points 1 and 3, because at the end of the day I can't find a better response to point 2 than "Personal preference." I do feel like the Nations books have added quite a bit to the equipment lists though!

1: Horrors

Horrors are terrifying beings that are difficult to impossible for ordinary people to deal with. While there are a few smallish ones that survived by virtue of numbers rather than raw power, the VAST majority of them survived because it takes highly trained adepts to deal with them. Horrors that are suitable to battling characters of the first three Circles are, essentially, "easy" kills for ordinary non-adepts. Such a thing should be very rare, not highly populous. One thing that I think many people seem to forget (or overlook, or never notice in the first place) is that adepts are still pretty low-powered until 4th Circle. They are just starting out, still learning their magic--they are initiates and apprentices, not legendary heroes in their own right. They are barely more capable than a reasonably well-trained non-adept. They have OPTIONS that regular people do not, but from a numbers perspective, their damage output is pretty reachable for trained non-adepts. Thus, creating Horrors suitable to low-low Circle adepts is also creating a Horror that diminishes the terror that Horrors are meant to bring. Horrors are *not* especially common in contemporary Barsaive, but they are still lurking in the deep shadows--the little ones that once existed likely starved to death during the Scourge once the easy kills had dried up, and very few new Horrors cross over into the material world at this point in the magic cycle due to its mysterious halt.

3: The Map

I guess my first response to this is that there is a LOT of space between Barsaive and Cathay, so that's why the maps don't line up. But also, maps in Earthdawn are exactly like "History" in Earthdawn--they are biased. Both are created by in-game characters, and thus reflect the values and opinions of those characters. If you want a sterling example, look at the following maps: 1st Edition Core, Barsaive Boxed Set, 3rd Edition Core. You'll notice the shape and location of *many* things shift around from map to map. You'll also notice variations between the map in The Theran Empire and other Campaign Settings (like Cathay and the forthcoming Elven Nations). This style of map-making (and history-making!) may not appeal to everyone, but it's always been a part of Earthdawn's charm for me.

[arma]

Hi, thanks for the feedback.
A couple thoughts out of development:

1)
Yeah, you don't get to the good stuff "fast enough" in ED (whether they're placed too high or whether you advance too slow is a mater of opinion and play style). It's not only Horrors (or creatures in general, where you get into problems finding something good for Circles 3-6, it doesn't have to be Horrors in the low Circles , Horror constructs would suffice), but also thread magic and the long list of Master talents you hardly ever reach.
Re-working that would be a major task (which we've worked around by giving you some tolls to scale things), but it would be necessary for any future edition, IMO.

2)
Got to disagree here, at least for core rulebooks. Characters reach the point where they shouldn't have to worry about small expenditures any more pretty fast, and at that point the list becomes irrelevant for determining Cost and only serves as a list of things to have you need to check off. A general guideline for pricing (such as "something that takes 10 days to make costs about 20 silvers) would cover everything, without impressing the need to actually carry anything--if you can't think of the stuff you need yourself, it probably won't come up in the game.

[spiritual]

Hi guys thank you for the replies, I defiantly see your point about some of the things you have said.

Horrors - Yes they are powerful and E.D is a great system for that (it really is) some great named horrors and dragons (is ace) my only point is that in my opinion a lot more lower end stuff should be added to the horrors lists (maybe just a lot more constructs) as you said yourself horrors are powerful and they should remain so, they should remain feared and scary (I agree fully) but such powerful horrors would or could have the ability to breed, give birth, lay eggs, or just create constructs using magic, so one would assume that more powerful horrors could create more constructs so maybe just 10 new constructs aimed at circle 1-4 would really help and also it would (not) take away any of the fear surrounding horrors if anything it would ADD to the fear because a creature capable of creating such foul constructs would itself be very powerful.

Take for example the named horror HATE, he produces the large spider construct JEHUTHRA (I love this) think it would be a great idea if a lot more of the bigger horrors created constructs, or if there were just more constructs. I do not mean to many, I do not mean a sea of constructs but sure 5 to 8 new constructs aimed at circles 1-3 would help, not only would this help new GM's but it would help to serve as an introduction to the world and what the horrors have done, what they have left behind and are still creating. For example as a GM you have a option, do you want to start your game in a kaer or out of a kear, do you want to start your game with the players fighting to open their kear, or do you want to start it much later after the players have spread into the world. Well it would also be nice to have the same type of option regarding horrors and constructs, do you want this to be a world with few horrors lurking in the darkness, or do you want it to be a world overrun and still packed with horrors and their constructs.

I would say certain other systems have entire books dedicated to this stuff, entire manuals full of options, no one is asking for that but sure a handful of new/set constructs just to help out over the first few circles would be nice, also be great to have that option.


Equipment - Guess on this area we disagree as I have 6 players and all of them have independently said the equipment lists are not long enough and leave out many things. Yes this can all be role played away, I can dream up any fictional price, you want a padlock for example, how good, made from what materials and I can calculate a time and price (not a problem for me really) but honestly a lot of players do get grumpy if something is not written in stone, it also can extend general shopping trips into hour long debates about items, costs, availability, and overall function and quality of the item. I would honestly say that players do love having options, all six of my players have said they think the equipment lists are to short and don't cover enough things, so guess its kind of a roll off on that one between what looks good in a book or what the players actually want.

In a old game we were around 7th circle and the players ended up with a lump of money, in the end they actually bought a house within Throal or Bartertown (I forget which) but sure they bought a large basic home and then proceeded to fill that entire place up with all manor of nonsense, traps, bone circles, alchemy rooms, think the nethermancer even had a room with some trapped spirit type of stuff going on, and sure they spent a long time buying things for this house / base camp like place, 99% of what they bought however was not in the book, and most of it was easy stuff to add, household things, trap building equipment, special ropes, locks, chests, barrels and so on. I seem to get asked a lot for common items that aren't in the book and that covers everything from a kettle to brew tea to tobacco for peoples pipes, once had a player ask me if he could buy a safe. Maybe it all sounds silly but players do respect seeing something written in a book and set in stone, they also like options so they can buy a bear skin blanket rather than just "a blanket" or they can buy a professional climbing kit and not just a "climbing kit" and things like that.

I actually think an equipment book might be a great edition to E.D, not only that covers more basic equipment such as food stocks, household goods, advanced adventure gear, player building stuff, pipes, smoking leafs, and so on. But could also include various magic items and other such things. I am aware of the (Arcane Mysteries of Barsaive) book and have it sat on my shelf from the 1st edition, however that was magic items and lacked other equipment, and more broad book covering this equipment could be really useful in my opinion, as could a new horrors book with a few more options on the lower end stuff for GM's to use.


System - This is just my opinion but I think the E.D system is much better than the like of AD&D for example. Been fair it has been a long time since I played D&D and am sure they have made some changes by now, but as it stands I have always preferred the E.D system and background. However I do think a lot of people are attracted to D&D not only for the skills and powers type power gaming aspect :/ but also because of the vastness of choice with equipment, weapons and magical items. I can not see any real problems with adding more equipment or even making a new Equipment of Barsaive book or something like that, not for the power gamer option but just for options, in my eyes options add to the game and help hold players attentions towards the game, not to much equipment, but enough choice does keep people interested, and you would be surprised at what some of the player characters want to buy or want to drag around with them.

I admire the fact that people want to keep the game the way it is now, E.D has now been around a while and it has had a lot of books published in years past, its a nice system so my only real point is it would be nice to make that great system better, if new constructs helps GM's and helps flesh out the world and give options to the world you want to run then I'm all for that. If new equipment gives even more options and helps keep players interested and gives them more goals then all for that as well. I'm not a fan of power gaming by no means, but am a fan of options and choices.

Great going so far with the game, am enjoying it and look forward to revised editions in the future I'll buy them and so will my mates

[Flagg]

To the OP: An equipment list sounds like a great fan project. Since I doubt Redbrick is going to issue a new edition of the PG just to expand the equipment list, maybe you (or us, collectively) should import some of the equipment lists from the other games you've mentioned, and assign ED prices to them. It would be a cool thing to share with the community.

[Telarus_KSC]

I've been reading a lot of 'old-school sandbox' advice, and I think a Trading & Goods resource would be awesome to have.

Something like http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/201 ... pdate.html

There's 13 pages of stuff we could start to convert (we should probably give the author a heads up asking for permission if we want to re-distribute stuff based on his work.. but the hackslashmaster blog is all about sharing old school resources). I think the process would start with converting many of the "gold-standard" items to a silver standard (hey, isn't D&D5 doing just that? LOL...)

[spiritual]

Hi guys thanks for the replies

We are already working on a new equipment list to use in our games.
The players felt strongly enough about it that we decided to make our own.

In time we will form a "best draft" and will be happy to send it off to RedBrick.

We have decided to do this more out of fun, options and choices rather than power gaming, in fact its not weapons we are adding its general goods, foods, cloths, we are even having a "Greengrocer of Barsaive" section so that players have a decent list of the food stocks, drinks, fruits and cooking herbs they can buy. Dont get me wrong as a GM it is EASY to just say (sure you buy whatever you want, knock off 10 silver) but it is more fun for the player if they have a list and can decide what they buy, and at what quality.

TRADE - I think having more equipment (even the basic stuff) could allow for more trade based missions or bonus rewards. For example if a player really wanted he could carry an entire case of Theran Elka Wine all the way from Thera to Haven near Parlainth, the rare item there would be worth double if not treble the price. We are also having a section based on pipes, smoking leafs, teas and so on.

ITEM FINDS - It would also be useful to have such lists for items your group finds, there is only so much gold coin you can dish out and small even basic items not only provide another source of loot but they also flesh out the world and scene, for example is it better to give your players 10 gold coins, or is it better they find a hair dressing kit and hair brushes made out of Thunda Beast tusks or whatever, having more items, even basic ones defiantly helps when building believable and colorful loot finds.

ROLE PLAY - Likewise having more equipment adds to the role playing experience, not only can you roleplay buying some of these things, which does allow players to use skills and talents they often don't use much, haggle, winning smile, and the social boosting and haggling like talents that otherwise sit dormant. I also like the fact you can send players on adventures or short missions based around such basic items, for example the old wizard in the citadel will help you (but he wants a new desk fit for a king) your players then have to carry a desk over 25 miles of open horror infested territory. Even such basic items can add options and adventures.

FREEDOM OF CHOICE - Like stated in the posts above players do enjoy building their characters, each new peace of equipment they buy makes them feel good about their character and the game, each time they upgrade the old for the new it helps give them the feeling of freedom and choice, like they are running and building that character, equipment does often play a big part in this.

Anyway guys thanks for the replies

[arotter]

Regarding your first point: I think one often overlooked option for low-level horror adversaries are marked namegivers. Take for example the introductory adventure, Misguided Ambitions, where a single troll nethermancer is more than enough to be a challenge for the characters. Add some reflavored gnashers/ghouls/cadaver men and you're ready to go.

The advantage of using marked namegivers is that you can easily adjust them to whatever powerlevel you need them, and they can serve well as plothooks that develop further until the characters finally are able to face off with the wormskull/bloatform/deceiver/whatever.

Also, don't underestimate the power of reflavoring some existing low-level horror constructs. For example: take the stats of a gnasher and describe it as a seperated namegiver skull that grows slimy tentacles from the stump of the neck on which it crawls around on and spits acid blobs at its enemies. A lesson I learned from D&D: you don't need stats for every creature, you just need a good enough approximation of the creature's abilities and some creativity to change its description/appearancce.

[Thane]

I've also heard it said that Earthdawn is great for low circle play and high circle play, but becaause of a lack of mid level creatures, mid circle adventures are a bit thin on the ground.

Apart from that, Earthdawn is still the game I fell in love with all those years ago.

[ukhata]

mid circle is easily remedied for me by making the group get attacked by not a skeorix, but an Alpha Skeorix.
and not to be attack by a black mantis, but a black praying mantis.
etc.
all this can also be used on lower and higher circle enemies. not just any ghoul, but a _strong_ ghoul.
all one needs to do is up the stats to be more inline with your player. and tadaa

Ukhata