Initiative Replacements

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Utsukushi
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Re: Initiative Replacements

Postby Utsukushi » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:52 pm

So... a character with, let's say, a 17 Dexterity, but Crystal Plate armor and a Footman's Shield, normally has an Initiative Step of 1. But if they put a point into Danger Sense - which can be learned as a Skill - then in rounds in which they are surprised, they get an Initiative Step of 8? That's a little.. well. Surprising. I can see a lot of players suddenly arguing that they were totally not expecting the bandits to start attacking right then.

How does Danger Sense interact with Surprise Strike? The description sounds as though it should -- you would get a Danger Sense roll to maybe avoid qualifying as `surprised' by the strike, even if you are, say, Blindsided -- but a Thief's use of Surprise Strike usually comes clear after Initiatives have been rolled.

freid78
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Re: Initiative Replacements

Postby freid78 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:57 pm


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Re: Initiative Replacements

Postby Utsukushi » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:29 pm


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Re: Initiative Replacements

Postby Baravakar » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:12 pm


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Re: Initiative Replacements

Postby Utsukushi » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:14 pm

That looks about right. My problems/questions are;
1) "This test is now considered the target's Initiative test result."

If we assume our target is my earlier example - the Warrior, say, with Crystal Plate and a shield and one rank in the Danger Sense skill - the Thief would have been better off coming up slowly and saying, "Hey, I'm going to stab you now." Let's say our Warrior has 3 Ranks in Air Dance; the Thief has still doubled his Initiative for the first round. On one hand, yes, I agree that bulky armor shouldn't stop someone from having fast reflexes when startled. On the other hand, that shouldn't suddenly completely negate the bulkiness of their armor.

(Now, to be fair, I have been through discussions in which people who have worn armor have assured me that Initiative Penalties are not a realistic way to describe how armor affects movement.. but it is how Earthdawn does it, and I don't see why that would go away just because somebody tried and failed to surprise you.)

2) Surprise Strike doesn't always mean you've completely surprised the target; it can apply anywhere you can potentially surprise them with a particular move, like if they're Blindsided, Knocked Down, or you've used Conceal Object. So say in round 4, the Warrior Disarms the Thief, and the Thief pulls out his Concealed Dagger and goes for another Surprise Strike. The "Declaring Actions" stage is intentionally vague. Initiative has already been rolled -- can the Warrior still use Danger Sense, given that it's proper place in the round is evidently during Initiative? If so, does it still replace his Initiative for that round, or become his Initiative for next round... does the Thief have to declare the specific Talents he plans to use in the beginning, and any round in which he hopes to achieve a surprise effect, the Warrior can use his Sense Danger in place of his regular Initiative? Or.. I mean, what? It doesn't even make sense here.

So my example of how I believe it should work (RAW, even, without trying to circumvent the actual published Player's Guide);
A thief is hiding in an alley waiting to surprise strike someone with danger sense.
The person doesn't search the alley, so the Thief has his chance.

Target gets close enough, makes his PER test, doesn't see the Thief. The Thief declares his intent to attack.

The Thief rolls Initiative. The target chooses to roll Danger Sense. If that beats the Thief's Initiative test, the target then rolls Initiative and combat begins normally -- the target is indeed NOT surprised, but his normally Step 1 Initiative isn't somehow Step 8 just now because he's too startled to remember his armor is bulky, or whatever. If the Danger Sense roll fails, then the target IS surprised; the Thief gets a free round, during which the target is at -3 on his Defenses and the Thief can use Surprise Strike on top of all that because sometimes, it's good to be a Thief.

Round 4 comes around. I'll break this down a little further. In "Declaring Actions", the Warrior says he wants to disarm the Thief, and the Thief says he wants to stab the Warrior again. Initiatives are rolled, the Warrior using Air Dance. Warrior wins - say, 5 to 3. He Disarms the Thief. The Thief uses his Concealed Dagger to keep stabbing -- this is well in line with his original intent so he doesn't draw a penalty for changing actions, and lets him use Surprise Strike. Even though Initiative isn't even a question anymore, the Warrior rolls his Sense Danger, and if he can beat a 3 (still the Thief's Initiative!), he's aware enough of what the Thief is doing that the Thief can't claim a Surprise Strike, just regular damage.

(HONESTLY, yes, I think the Danger Sense in that case should be rolling against the Conceal Object total. And the one when he goes into the alley should probably be opposed by the Thief's Stealthy Stride. But that's not how it's written, so I'll accept that Initiative is the only valid target for Sense Danger.)

Virtually all of the inconsistencies go away if it just allows an Initiative Test where applicable (ie, acting normally in combat, just as it says), instead of replacing it (which it doesn't say.)

freid78
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Re: Initiative Replacements

Postby freid78 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:39 pm

This is exactly how i would rule this too. Thanks Utsukushi to have taken the time to explain it better.

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Re: Initiative Replacements

Postby Mataxes » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:11 pm

You know what, good points have been made.

I rescind my earlier statement about Danger Sense replacing Initiative when dealing with a surprise/ambush situation. Instead, it removes the penalties associated with surprise. The character rolls Initiative as normal and is able to otherwise act during the 'surprise round'.
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn


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