[ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

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Razan_GM
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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Razan_GM » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:51 am

Testing done, some more mistakes come up, major one: Right now slower animals can charge/use charge like powers (with or without rider) from shorter distance than faster ones, another totally wrong idea. So lets give all the creatures Charge Movement (and for simplicity set it to 20 for all creatures). Long post as many text copied for fast and easy access.



change
Movement/Charge Distance: The creature’s movement rate, given in yards per round. Any special forms of movement are provided in this entry as well. Unless otherwise noted in the creature’s description, creature movement works like movement for player characters, including the need to use a Standard action to move up to double their Movement. Charge Distance is a length the creature have to move to get enough impetus for Charging Attacks, Charge Distance is never doubled, simply determines distance.


This would be only change in Movement description as creatures get their own Powers. So creature movement stat would look like this:
Movement: 37/20

Now for the 3 new Powers in GMG:


Charge (5): Using Standard Action the boar may move up to twice its Movement and make a single attack. If the boar moves over its Charge Distance, it gains a +5 bonus to the Attack and Damage test.



No need for this new rule(only 1 creature have it - cheetah), simply use Charge from above adding: " This ability may not be used if the creature has a rider".



Dive (10): Using Standard Action the espagra may move up to twice its Movement and make a single attack. If the creature moves over its Charge Distance, it gains a +10 bonus to the Attack and Damage test. This ability may not be used if the espagra has a rider.

As for all previous editions errata was needed so surely there will be one (or more) for Ed4. I was trying to avoid it but a minor change in PG would be needed.



Charging attacks allow a mounted character to use the momentum of the mount’s movement to deliver devastating blows. A charging attack requires a combat-trained mount or a successful Trick Riding test against the mount’s Social Defense. To make a charging attack, the rider must move towards the target in a relatively straight line at a rate higher than the mount’s Charge Movement Rate using the mount’s standard action to move. If the rider plans to move after the attack, by using the split¬ting movement combat option, it also has to be in a relatively straight line.



change
Charging attacks require the mount to use its Standard action to move. It can¬not attack and must move more than its Charge Movement Rate towards the target. The rider’s damage is enhanced by the mount’s Strength Step (and possibly the Charge talent). The mount’s movement ends next to the target.

The changes are really small but the way they enchance gameplay is great. Now unused spears/Pole Arms are really appreciated. For 10 years I have been GMing Ed not even 1 player used spear. Now all changed. Why I can't catch up horse(motorcycle) in RL but I can in RPG???? (happened many times during combat while playing Ed). I know I'm going to change it in my pdf. I would appreciate for other creatures Movement values ideas.

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Crusader » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:14 am


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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby freid78 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:30 pm

We can always dream ;)

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Razan_GM » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:58 pm

Is/was Flying Carpet spell Movement value supposed to be:
a) close to horse speed (real horse speed 37 y/r)
b) just a way to fly and move just a bit faster than "human" walking?

Ed3:
Horse Move: 20 y/r
Flying Carpet Move: 18 y/r
Human Move 12 y/r

Ed4:
Horse Move: 20 y/r (as it is in GMG for now)
Flying Carpet Move: 16 up to 24 y/r (as it is in PG)
Human Move 12 y/r

As Im done with gathering info about creatures real speeds, I would like to know what was the main reason for this spell Movement value in Ed3 and Ed4. Real Creatures Speeds Table coming in day or two.

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Razan_GM » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:41 am

Nothing like not getting answer for an easy question from developers - one in previous post, its only more than a month that passed...


RL problems got me and I wasn't able to share sooner, sry.

Predators hunt in many ways but some major types can be easily distinguished:
-stealth (camouflage), grab and kill style
-venom, one "bite" and wait till poison kills a prey (mostly combined with camouflage)
- speed, if you don't use stealth and lack venomous attack you have to run fast to catch a prey or you don't eat

Having in mind this principles:

- burrowing creatures can only be detected by sense of touch, and they can hide underground so there was no need to change their Movement (except one), they can attack almost always surprising their prey and can retreat underground if in danger.

-similar situation with poisonous creatures, they almost always attack using stealth (or in case of monitor lizard short fast run and bite) and just wait for poison to kill its prey. Movement of those creatures was not changed, or corrected to value of RL animals where possible.

- swimming Movement value was corrected to value of RL animals where possible.

- walking Movement value was corrected to value of RL animals where possible.

- flying Movement was hardest and took much of my research and collating time. Comparing which creature can hunt others, what they hunt for (some hunt only flying pray), if they can be mounts their Movement cant be too high for game balance, what are their physical attributes and so on. Finally I'm quite happy with results, some errors might hide somewhere, but for now I cant see them.

So here it is:
Creatures Speed.docx
(40.98 KiB) Downloaded 131 times

or
Creatures Speed.pdf
(697.67 KiB) Downloaded 144 times


Thats what I'll be using, as these Movement values are as adequate as possible. If you have any questions or ideas I'll be happy to read them. If you find any errors (hope not) also please point them.

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Baravakar » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:57 pm

Excellent Work. I'm going to switch things over to your system right away.

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Mataxes » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:00 pm

Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Razan_GM » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:53 pm

Thx, I was kinda worried you guys didnt know answer for that :P

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Razan_GM » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:36 am

The new GMG is out and some things changed. No more Bat Mosquito swarm, Rat swarm, powers/abilities changed.
I also found some minor mistakes in my old Creature Speed table (krilla and thunderbird ground movement missing).

So here is new wersion:
Creatures Real Speed.docx
(43.41 KiB) Downloaded 117 times

or
Creatures Real Speed.pdf
(612.64 KiB) Downloaded 99 times


Below changes are in above files.
After some thinking I found that even less changes are needed in PG and GMG to use Creatures Real Speed.
Charging attacks, Charge and Dive (both are creature powers) will need at least 20 yards to work for all creatures (no more must move more than Movement Rate -where faster creatures needed greater distance to use charge than slower one :crazy: ), still needing Standard action to work.
No need to give Charge Distance, I just edited some descriptions so they all include "..moves at least 20 yards" in place of "move more than Movement Rate".

Using free program I edited PG (it was hard work as so many crazy things happened during editing I was really close to resigning), and changed all those things that should have errata:
-The Giant Size Spell provides bonuses to Strength-only and Toughness-only Tests, but Attribute-only Tests no longer exist. So I just cutted "-only"
-Obsidiman Starting Willpower is listed as 20 in the table p.55
- The text restricting characters to Novice Skills during character creation was missing
-The Send Message Spell appears to Target the recipients of the spell, so the Range listing should not be "Self (See Text)" but "Line of Sight".
-and minor ones I cant remember all

Also added changes to use with Creatures Real Speed table as well as edited all Creatures Movement in PG:
- spirit mount Movement Rate
- wheeling attack talent
- charge use example
- 2 charge rules changed slightly
- mounts Movement Rate in Mounts Table

As well as in GMG:
-Cheetah Dash power no longer needed
- Wolf Movement is 1 in new GMG (poor turtle wolfs) :P
- Lizard stats second column is not straight
- all creatures Movement Rates changed to Real Movement Rates
- Crocodile Maneuver Bite and Hold (not existing anymore) changed to Grab and Bite (also in Death Roll)
- Porcupine snakes Maneuver Bite and Hold changed to Grab and Bite
-Charge, Dive powers include "..moves at least 20 yards" in place of "move more than Movement Rate".
-p.250 Dive:, Fury:, Resist Pain:, Willful: changed word Step to Rank - as step is used to determine dice
-p.251 Swooping Attack: should be "...not suffer any penalties, or spend Strain." Word test suggest there is still Defense penalty.

Time for X-mass presents (as I know that having errata is such a drag):
So if you have PG pdf or GMG pdf and would like to have edited and errata including file, send me a PM.

Im not giving away pdfs, so if you dont have originals get them, as I will make sure before sending my files.
I dont have files that include errata only, all are changed to use creatures Real speed.

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Re: [ED4] Mount, horse, animals, creature speed

Postby Mataxes » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:03 pm

As something of an aside, but related...

That's an interesting thought when it comes to charge. The current situation is largely the same as it has been since ED1 -- that is, the requirement of needing more than a single move action to take advantage of the bonuses from charging (whether the talent or other methods).

This is one area where... I think there's a dearth of useful data. Cavalryman is one of the 'core' Disciplines, but it is probably one of the least played, largely because of issues relating to mounts. I can't recall having one in my own games (and I've run two multi-year campaigns, not to mention a bunch of shorter games and have been a player in a bunch more). The ones I have heard about are almost all windlings (again, to get around concerns about mount utility in kaers).

I've always had a desire to run a 'cavalry' campaign -- not necessarily all cavalryman adepts, but a game that is set around a military unit. Probably based in Cara Fahd, but it never got past the basic conceptual stage. I suspect that experience with that game, where movement and distance would have been a much more important factor, might have resulted in a different approach to mounted combat.

That said, I'm not sure that the '20 yards or more gets charge bonus' is the best solution. I think different creatures should probably have different effective 'charge ranges' -- whether that's a function of the creature's base movement rate (e.g., half move for all creatures), or just a value assigned based on the creature... *shrug*

It would likely be related to creature size/mass/base speed; how much 'space' does it take for the critter to get up to "terminal" velocity? A small, lighter creature wouldn't need as much running room compared to one that has the same base speed, but is larger and heavier... if you understand what I mean?

Using the numbers from the GM Guide (rather than your tweaks), both the elephant and felux have movement 16. Would they both get up to "ramming speed" in the same distance? My gut says no. (The felux doesn't have a charge ability, but I think the point I'm trying to make is clear.)

I don't know. This looks to be one of those cases where early playtest/feedback didn't bring up the potential issues because the people involved were working on certain assumptions. I don't think it breaks anything -- after all, things have been working pretty well under the older paradigm for over 20 years. As has been demonstrated on these boards, questions come up that haven't occurred to anybody in the past.

Certainly something to keep in mind for the future.
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn


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