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So now in the new system, correct me if I'm wrong, according to p34, every +5 over the PD of your opponent adds a +2 to the damage step?

that seems like a lot, I thought it was only a flat +2 to damage per success level. Adding a +8 step (for a really great roll) should be able to defeat just about any thread heavy armor out there. (an average of a str step 6 and broadsword step 5 brings it to a 17 D12+2d8, an average damage roll is 14. Plate armor is a 9. This doesn't include any talents, thread weapons or spells. Also now that you can forge thread weapons, this step could get over 30.

I thought the point of the change in this system was to make armor more relevant. Is it all about damage avoidance now?

thanks

Personally, I've been running it as straight bonus to the damage roll, rather than recalculating the step every time (it's faster).

But to get to your point... in prior editions a low Physical Defense also tended to mean that armor didn't do much for you. Even if you stacked yourself up with magical plate armor and shield, an armor defeating hit ignores all of it. This was especially problematic for casters and other character types that didn't tend to go after Physcical Defense -- attack steps would often outstrip Defenses.

Now, armor still provides you some protection -- in your example, the average results mean that the character in plate armor takes 5 damage (14 - 9). In ED3, he would take (on average) 11 damage: Step 11 Damage, with no reduction for armor.

Not to mention that the chances of getting the four additional successes required to score that +8 bonus isn't very high against an equivalent opponent (meaning the attack step is roughly equal to the Defense rating).You need to roll 20 points higher than the DN. Just looking at the rough numbers against a DN of 10 with a Step 10, that is about a 1% chance.

(Incidentally, I find it amusing that you're coming at this from the direction you are -- when this change was first previewed, there was a big hue and cry that it made armor too powerful.)

Both of your statements are correct: +5 over the difficulty is one success and adds +2 to the test. Mathematically it makes little statistical difference if it is added to the result or increase the step. My players add it to the result so they don't have to figure out a new step in the middle of the action.

Your example uses four additional successes, which would give an armor defeating hit on up to a Physical Defense of 36, which is indeed a really great roll. The +8 damage will indeed effectively bypass any armor which has seen no improvement through chain mail (Physical Armor 7). However, +20 over the difficulty is something of an outlier by any measure. This example also neglects the fact armor can be improved through Forge Armor, thread armor, and spells as well.

Previously, armor defeating hits were disproportionately effective against heavy armor. Getting a Physical Armor of 17 was pointless if you didn't have the Physical Defense to go along with it; armor defeating hits generally require significantly less than 20 over the difficulty. Now, since armor isn't simply entirely bypassed, very high armor values still offer protection against incredible results, making them something worth investing. As well, using armor with no initiative penalty is a greater risk.

I think your example would yield Step 19, not 17 (Strength 6, Weapon 5, Success 8). Also, your average result for Step 17 is off; it is 17, not 14. A Step number is also the average result. The ability for dice to roll over increases their average result.

Hopefully this is helpful.

Yeah, Morgan's math is right. (Which means the example still results in less net damage -- 8 on average.)

I posted without double-checking the numbers.

Agreed, the new rules mean armor continues to be relevant even when your opponent's Attack steps are much higher than your Defense rating.

Also, in 4E, shields add a modifier to your Physical Defense. I've recently started studying sword & buckler techniques (), and this really lines up better with shield usage than just a few more points of armor.

actually,
1: I can't add it appears
2: I keep forgetting, even with the +8 to damage steps, you still reduce the armor from the total damage done, correct?

Correct, armor always applies in normal damage rolls.

Armor defeating hits are gone entirely.

Each spell has a specific listed effect for additional successes. The effect for Earth Darts is +2 rounds for each additional success. In your example, Earth Darts would cause no additional damage, but the physical armor reduction would last 4 additional rounds.

The actual damage would be:

WIL + 2 + (Damage from Extra Threads, 2 per Thread) - Target's Physical Armor

The spell will not benefit from physical armor reduction at the time, but it will benefit from it on subsequent rounds.