Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

[Panda]

While you are focusing on spell matrices as the problem, it is actually the spellcasting setup as a whole. Using Versatility as the example, you cannot be a functional spellcaster with one talent. Take any one talent from the suite and you are not getting far: Patterncraft, Spellcasting, Standard Matrix, or Thread Weaving.

As to the number of spell matrices which are available, a lot of time at the table was invested into finding out the best overall balance. The point blank answer to how many spell matrices would someone take was all too frequently: as many as I can. By removing them as talents altogether, then spellcasters would get two with no more, or providing a different number for free at which it would be the same question, just using a different number until the point of a spell matrix (limiting a spellcaster's access to magic on the fly) is entirely invalid. It is the cost of having such versatility. The current setup encourages actually considering talents other than a spell matrix, while maintaining entirely reasonable access to spell matrices through other means.

If you consider astral corruption to be a thing which will exist with or without spell matrices, then they most definitely do add something - or remove something as the case may be. However, if this all just exists as a mechanical conceit to screw over spellcasters from ruling the world from beyond the grave... there really is nowhere to go from there.

Since you don't like it, you should definitely change it at your table. Find out what works for your group and go with that. Perhaps it is offering more of them for free, or having a table which shows how many of each type you can get (3E style) and using the list in talent options as a note of when you gain access to them. Even some of the more interesting ideas which were proposed over a year ago. In all seriousness, you should play the game however is the most fun for your group.

Waterfall Slam is declared whenever is convenient, since it is a Free Action. Which really means after you hit, much like Crushing Blow.

[Telarus_KSC]

I probably wouldn't let a character learn a Matrix talent via Versatility before they had learned the caster's Threadweaving style, and then Patterncraft. Then the Matrix and Spellcasting (order depending on if there was any "Safe" astral space to practice in). That's the order I take new players through the Talents too.

I think the 4E setup simplifies what was a very tangled set of opening talents in 1e+ for spellcasters while retaining the "pseudo-Vancian" feeling of spell slots which independently rank up as you learn more about magic. Having the two free Matrices auto-rank with your Circle, but having to spend LP on the others is a key game mechanic now, as it feeds that sense of growth. Getting that 3rd matrix to rank 5, so you can rock three Circle 5 spells at once is a big accomplishment. Previous to that, you would have to find you best lower circle utility spell, or what have you.

I think people should also consider making spell-matrix item of the various types more important to a game. Sure, he's only got 3 matrices, but if the Wizard you are facing also has a static rank 1-2 spell matrix enchanted into every ring on his hand, he may have access to his entire Circle 1-2 grimoire every second. Those rules aren't in the Player's Guide, so we haven't seen them for 4E yet.

[Gkeckley]

Are the rules for making a spell matrix and the costs going to be in the game master guide, or do we have to wait until the companion for those rules? Third edition relied on knacks to create them and knacks have not even been introduced into the system yet. I remember there was a faq at one point with the costs for the matrix objects listed and they were not cheap.

[Utsukushi]

[Mataxes]

[Panda]

House rules and personal preferences aside, the reference to what happens when you have two Thread Weaving talents can be found on p. 219, Limits on Threads. Only the Thread Weaving talent with the highest rank is used for permanent threads.

[Panda]

I'm glad you like the change to Patterncraft from Read and Write Magic. It is one of the things which was put in place for future developments, in addition to simply sounding better. There are many plans for this little talent.

To be clear, I will never say four matrices is perfect balance. It is a good place to start and use as the baseline. Perfection is the enemy of done and something to which you strive, but never achieve. My opinion is once you have played using the rules as written, you are in a good position to know what will work best for you.

The bigger picture, to which you alluded, is there quite a bit happening in the background with regard to how various mechanics interact. For example, changes to how karma is regained was the result of various other decisions and then resulted in further changes to adapt to the new paradigm. As a nesting example, skills largely function the same as the equivalent talent. The most significant, mechanical difference is karma. From a system mastery (and page count) point of view, this is a good thing as it means you don't have to remember all of the nuanced distinctions between the two, only the few exceptions. At low circles, the ability to spend karma doesn't mean much. Once you get to higher circles, or have a windling with multiple threads boosting their karma ritual, the gulf between the two gets much wider. Taken as a whole, this (hopefully) reduces the overall mechanical complexity and makes adepts start to feel quite powerful as they advance in circle, while still feeling like a mostly normal person with a slight edge at lower circles.

As an aside, my own house rule for karma is it refills at the beginning of each session. This is part bookkeeping (I track karma pools with actual piles of D6s) and part to make expenditures over a long period as meaningful as those in a single intense day. It is quite meta, thus not for everyone (and never even suggested for the Player's Guide), but it works perfectly for this particular group and their play preferences. The side effect of this is karma rituals have become mostly a role-playing tool, though there are still some other mechanics tied to them.

To tie this all back to spellcasting, the most likely unintended consequence of giving easier access to more spell matrices is likely to be with maintaining spells. The number of spells which have or can have their duration in minutes means it is easy to increase the number of buffs on the group at any one time without necessarily impacting spell selection. To be fair, this may be a net positive for some groups.

Hopefully this adds to the overall picture of what is going on behind the scenes with regard to various directions.

Morgan

[kosmit]

I got nethermancer in 3rd ED which makes use from blood matrices

[Panda]

Whoa, kosmit, it's been a while! Welcome back and how have you been?

[kosmit]

I was reading forum but didn't know how can I contribute to discussion

I'm fine and soon I'll start 3rd/4th ED campaign but my old 3rds are doing well.