Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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Panda
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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Panda » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:14 am

1) A "full day" tends to mean 8 hours. Which was changed for the Forge talents, but apparently not the others. Since it is effectively done during downtime, I don't think there is much practical difference from requiring the spirit to be summoned during the time to simply meditating and communing with the spirit. This is the kind of question which is typically handled through playtesting; seeing if there is a clear winner, or if it should be left to the preference of individual GMs.

2) Just the one, specific spirit. I provided an update which clarifies the talent can only be used to summon that specific spirit, as a limitation associated with dropping the tier of the talent.

3) This will depend on what the final spirit mechanics are in the GM's Guide. My inclination is to treat the spirit somewhat as having dual natures. Once "killed" in the physical world, it is simply banished to the astral plane for a period of time. After which time it can be summoned again. If it is killed in the astral plane, then you are looking at finding a new spirit to bond with. This should not be an easy task given how rare and poorly understood the bond is in the first place - not impossible, just a notable deed and journey. Again, this is another area which will benefit from more playtesting to determine what is the best option.

Hopefully this is helpful.
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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Gkeckley » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:37 am

Thanks. This was definitely helpful. I was pretty much thinking along these lines. I know you stated that this is the first draft and it will probably need some tinkering, but I think it is looking pretty good and I am looking forward to any updates on the discipline.

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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Panda » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:43 am

This is good to hear. Honestly, updates will be based primarily on feedback from using it in play at this point. Which is pretty much true of every unofficial discipline which I post. Epiphanies, reasonable arguments, and mechanical interactions notwithstanding, of course.

If anyone does end up using one of these unofficial disciplines, I would love to hear about them.
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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Utsukushi » Tue May 05, 2015 1:38 pm

Hi! OK, I've been busy with Other Things, so I know this goes back a bit now, but I wanted to ask a couple of things about.. well, the thoughts behind stuff, and this seems like the right thread for that.

First... why is Air Speaking still a thing? The Range still isn't very good, you have to beat the Mystic Defense of everyone you want to talk to each round so it's not really reliable, and it costs a Strain? Moving it to the Talent Options just means nobody ever has to waste their time on it, doesn't it? Does anybody see ever voluntarily using a Talent Option for this?

I mean, I do see that it was tweaked a little to work more like the Silent Converse spell, which I think is what people have long house-ruled it to, but that was always an act of sheer desperation as it was, just trying to give a required Discipline Talent a little bit of usefulness to an adventuring Elementalist. Now that it's not required... it really seems like wasted words, and I thought one of the design goals was to weed out those kinds of dead Talents?

Likewise with Elemental Tongues -- that still is a Discipline Talent, so it's required to improve that to advance in Circles, but there's.. no very good reason, otherwise, to bring it past Rank 5, is there? More minutes of conversation allowed without having to re-roll the Talent, I guess, but five minutes is usually plenty to find out what you need anyway, or.. well, it's a Strain, but you can always re-roll. And as noted in the blog, Recovery Tests are something Elementalists do, especially as they advance in Circles, so the Strain isn't necessarily an issue either.


Annnnd... well. I mean.. I remember another of the stated goals was to open up spellcaster's Optional Talents so that the Matrices weren't so mandatory, but I can't help noticing that however you build them on the blog, you always include both the Standard and Enhanced Matrix because... yeah. People play Spellcasters because they want to cast spells. From a developer's viewpoint - and especially Morgan's, with his focus on the magic -- are Spell Matrices working the way you wanted them to?

As I'm seeing it, the balance you have right now is Durability 7, or 5-and-a-First-Circle-Karma-Ability, or 3 and Being-Able-To-Do-What-Your-Discipline-Is-About-Without-Being-Eaten-On-The-First-Turn. So I have to say I don't think they're working the way *I* hoped they would.

I do love Patterncraft! That's a fantastic expansion on R&W Magic.

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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Panda » Tue May 05, 2015 2:23 pm

Air Speaking isn't for everyone, but it can be a valuable tool to the right group. I can say one of the playtest groups used it quite a bit, between BASE jumping from an airship and coordinating while dropping, and communicating discretely during an intrigue laden heist.

Elemental Tongues is very important if you want to summon an elemental spirit. It is the key ability for the second step, negotiating with the spirit (pg. 366).

The situation with spell matrices isn't quite as simple as making them less mandatory, but providing a situation where spellcasters are encouraged to take something other than just spell matrices. Far too often the situation was a spellcaster wondering why they would bother with those other talents. There isn't any one change, but numerous which attempted to adjust the state.

There are two free spell matrices (once of which improves to an Enhanced Matrix) at first circle. The intention here is to no longer tie up as many resources in being able to access the primary feature of the discipline, and to give an appropriate upgrade so taking an Enhanced Matrix at fifth circle, then advancing it to the rank of the spell you want in it, isn't functionally mandatory.

Another piece of encouraging spellcasters to take another look at talent options is to give them talent options which are worth taking beyond spell matrices. Then encouraging spells which augment talents, rather than replace them. As well, it has become a more difficult choice as to what spells are in your matrices at a given time. A spellcaster which is primarily interested in out of combat spells may not actually take spell matrices as talent options (there was one of these in playtest) - though they aren't likely to have the spellcasting discipline as their primary and thus it is difficult to write towards.

In all, they are functioning exactly as intended.

As compared to previous editions, I do not see the balance in the same way. There is Durability 7 (I will include 9/7, 8/6, and 7/6 here), which has always payed off right away. Then Durability 6/5 which would start to pay off once you got in the higher circles, though the current Durability 5 gives a free talent and a karma ability. Which actually provides some parity with Durability 7. Durability 4/3 gave you access to casting spells, where as the current Durability 3 gives you two free talents and a talent upgrade at fifth circle. Perhaps I don't understand what the paragraph was addressing?
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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby ottdmk » Tue May 05, 2015 3:46 pm

As this is where a lot of design decisions are being discussed I thought I'd ask: why aren't Alchemy and Physician Talents? They seem like areas where I'd expect some adept or another to be supernaturally good.

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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Panda » Tue May 05, 2015 4:20 pm

This is a more complicated question than it appears on the surface. There was a time when they were being strongly considered as talents. Different system models included discrete discipline "builds" where a spellcaster could choose a specialty of sorts and gain differing abilities at the cost of others - one of which was alchemy. Physician has a similar story. Many of design decisions later, these ideas were awfully neat, but simply weren't working out for a variety of reasons.

Which doesn't really answer the question. With changes made to Cold Purify and the existence of healing spells and other aids, Physician didn't fit as a talent. While Alchemy isn't present as a talent, this doesn't mean it won't be available in some form. Because I agree with you, alchemy is exactly the sort of knack a magician should have in their bag of tricks.
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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Utsukushi » Tue May 05, 2015 4:39 pm


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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Panda » Tue May 05, 2015 5:22 pm

My apologies for not being more clear on the application of Elemental Tongues and Spirit Talk: they are tests made against the summoned spirit's Social Defense to convince them to work for you in the first place. For each success, they agree to use one of their powers. There are some other pieces to the negotiation (terms of payment), but those are left to each group.

With regard to spell matrices, the majority of spellcasters wanted more matrices. Which is good - the new spell list made choosing spells more difficult, which is a sold win in my book. However, it is deliberate they don't get access to all of these in combat. This is particularly important when considering enhancement spells (e.g. Air Armor) which can realistically be chain cast for a constant benefit. Too many matrices means increased access to these spells.

Access to spells outside of combat should be significantly improved, with reattuning being easier (all spells can be moved with 10 minutes) and grimoire casting as a viable (if not good) option. Since combat isn't a spellcaster's thing, if they really want to bring all of their versatility to bear, then it will require exploring other options. Thread items (spell matrix objects in particular) become more important in this situation, but with the cost of taking threads.

I don't agree with the idea a spell matrix isn't really a talent - unless talents like Animal Companion Durability, Impressive Display, Long Shot, Mount Attack, Sprint, Tiger Spring, True Shot, True Sight, and Waterfall Slam also don't count as talents. In the world, spell matrices are astral constructs which are a part of your pattern and provided through a connection to your discipline. Which can serve as a basic definition for any talent. I agree with you description of the role they serve in the game, but by the same context Karma Ritual was once just a limit on how much Karma you could get back at a time. Spell matrices are an investment into the incredibly versatile sub-system of spellcasting.

Hopefully this answers your questions better?
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Re: Panda Gaming Grove Discussion

Postby Utsukushi » Fri May 15, 2015 2:57 pm



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