Cavalrymen

[Lys]

So I read Panda's several days ago, and was disappointed to find that their 5th Circle Discipline ability had been considerably reduced in power. The original Masterful Horseman ability allowed mounted Cavalrymen to ignore the Harried modifier when running and splitting movement, which made them even more dangerous when given manoeuvring room. The new ability - One Soul, Two Bodies - gives a +2 to non-combat tests involving the mount, which while useful isn't quite in the same league. I thought about it and figured that they probably wanted the 5th Circle Abilities to be a bit more narrow in application, which is fine I guess. Then today I read the , and find their new 5th Circle Ability, Overwhelming Force, allows them to ignore the strain from aggressive attack, which is quite powerful and always useful in a fight. So I'm wondering what's the rationale for changing the Cavalryman ability, as it doesn't seem to be a matter of applicability.

Also on the note of Cavalrymen, I honestly don't think kaer diving is a major limitation for them. Kaers were intended to be underground cities where people would live for centuries, it makes sense that they would bring cattle and other domestic animals down with them, and thus size their tunnels accordingly. Some kaers might perhaps be too small for a Cavalryman to bring their mount, but I expect a fair number of them would not have that problem. One must also consider that both Namegivers and mounts vary considerably in size. A passage large enough to permit a standing troll to comfortably pass through it also large enough to allow a rider on a war horse. Now a larger mount like a stajian or thundra beast may not be able to fit into that passage, but smaller mounts like the griffin, huttawa, or troajin will fit basically anywhere the rest of the group can go, albeit not always while carrying a rider.

[Panda]

The reason the Journeyman Cavalryman ability was changed is actually remarkably straight-forward: it is redundant with the existence of Wheeling Attack, which does the same thing. As for what ended up as the ability, we wanted something to encourage their non-combat abilities since every other talent is strongly combat related. The Sky Raider Journeyman ability is powerful, but dangerously reckless. We wanted something to emphasize that aspect, because there wasn't much to encourage those tactics. It can be overwhelming, but it can also go pear-shaped quite quickly.

Cavalrymen (who aren't windlings) in kaers are going to face problems related to space even with the allowance for livestock to fit. Just because they can move through city streets, doesn't mean there is enough room to maneuver. Transporting animals may involve moving them with block and tackle, which are disassembled afterwards with the intention to put them back in place when it is time to go outside. Once everyone is in the kaer proper, all of the traps come into play and I can only imagine making tunnels difficult to manage for larger Horrors and their constructs is the first move. However, it is completely fair for a GM to make a kaer something other than a huge pain if there is a Cavalryman in the group. This doesn't mean this is always going to be the case, as not all GMs are wont to play nice.

[Lys]

I must confess with some embarrassment that I forgot Wheeling Attack removed the rider's harried modifier from splitting movement. Though at least in 3rd Edition it doesn't remove the mount's harried modifier from running. I suppose in light of that the change does make sense.

It is definitely true that the difficulty a kaer presents a Cavalryman will vary with the GM; mine happens to have a wonderful preference for grand set piece scenery. The final battle of our first kaer dive occurred in an imposing cathedral-like building large enough to not just afford our orkish Cavalryman and his stajian full manoeuvring room, but also fit over a hundred combatants between our group, the nefarious Horror-worshipping cultists, and the kaer dwellers who still opposed them. It was quite the climatic battle, and between clearing out the kaer and exposing the cultists we became famous enough in Cara Fahd that even the queen has heard of us. Not bad for a group of Novice adventurers, eh? But I digress. I do stand by the point that the smaller mounts - huttawa, troajin, and griffin - can physically go nearly anywhere their riders can. It may not be possible to ride or charge on them in all circumstances, but the big thematic problem for Cavalrymen is leaving their closest companion behind as they go into danger, and with the right mount this need not be the case outside of social situations.

Speaking for myself, I am strongly considering making Stormbreaker - my Weaponsmaster - take Cavalryman as her second Discipline, with her taming a stone lion as her mount. I first thought about taking a pre-Scourge unicorn or even a firescale, but it was precisely size considerations which lead me to decide a stone lion was the best option. That way it will not be physically impeded anywhere that our troll Warrior isn't. Knowing Stormbreaker she's liable to take her companion everywhere, without any consideration for whether or not it's appropriate. After all, she tends to feel the same way about her blades, they are as much as extension of her own self as her mount would be. Though now I'm picturing her requesting a troll-sized bed at an inn so that she may snuggle with her beloved lion at night, while the terrified innkeeper weighs the consequences of denying the kind of person who cuddles the cross between a savage big cat and an angry earth elemental.

[Panda]

Sounds like an awesome game! Who doesn't want stone lion snuggles? To be honest, I would be incredibly wary of pre-Scourge unicorn snuggles. Like, "going to get stabbed in the back" wary. Literally stabbed in the back.

The biggest thing with mounts in a game is the GM. Some GMs try to be accommodating, others favor verisimilitude; the ability for a troll-sized biped to maneuver in narrow confines is a lot better than a quadruped with a rider. I have personally seen two games break down into recriminations over a Cavalryman and their mount. The details aren't pretty and both are a little petty. L5R has the same problem with the Unicorn clan, which is an even bigger mess in many ways. Really, the most important thing is communication and to figure out if the GM wants a mount in the game. It sounds easy, but it can be so hard.

[Lys]

Well that's why you beat the unicorn into submission first, show it who's boss. It's like the relationship between in Dai Mahou Toujo. Sure the cute animal mascot is actually a vengeful and ruthless hardass always trying to assassinate its owner, but if she can't survive constant murder attempts from her closest and most trusted companion who can she survive them from? Eventually, after showing fathomless depths of pitiless strength, cunning, and cruelty, she'll come earn her companion's true loyalty and respect. Really, pre-Scourge unicorns are great mounts if you're playing someone evil and bloodthirsty enough that even the unicorn will be impressed, or alternatively some sort of great paragon of virtue who can redeem even the irredeemable. Neither of those character arcs suit Stormbreaker, though.

And yeah, it is a pretty damn awesome game, but unfortunately it's presently on hold because of the GM's job. We may be able to start it up again next year, but time will tell. It was a pretty fun last session though! We were in Claw Ridge at a banquet thrown by a woman known as Iceheart, an experienced Cavalrywoman and leader of a sizeable mercenary company. I wound up telling Iceheart how to do her job in front of all her senior officers and much of her command, and got away with it by virtue of an extraordinary success on my Diplomacy roll. This was followed by sharing tales of the exotic land of Ashura (roughly Iran) whence Stormbreaker came, and then geeking out over swords with another Swordmaster. Finally, on the way back from the banquet we got ambushed by men on horses wearing flayed dog skins over their armour, and I proceeded to slaughter them so thoroughly the GM said he might as well have sent them into battle naked.

[Telarus_KSC]

I've been thinking on this topic for a while. I re-read Pandas 4e and 3e posts on the topic, and then read the Discipline description again. Cavalrymen need stuff to do when not mounted in order to be a more viable Player Character choice (see all comments on this discipline ever), but should retain their primary focuses of "movement" & mounted combat. I want to see things like the Cavalrymen in the inn's common room use the same tactics they would over the gambling-argument as on the field. So, why not allow the "Charge" & "Wheeling" talents to be used while afoot? Maybe make it a Talent Knack for each one (this would limit it to Talent users). So, first question is, "Is this a good idea?" Will it mess up the mechanics too much? We'll see...

The second question, then, becomes how to implement this in the rules. The Charge talents require use of the Charge mounted-combat option, which requires a mount spend their action to perform a full/double move & the target must be more than Movement Rate away (to build momentum). So, we want to retain the feel of "if there is space, Charge!" and the Cavalryman tactics surrounding decisions to charge &/or split movement, etc.

Do we allow a Cavalryman to move more than his basic Movement and attack as part of the Charge Knack? That would be very interesting... Or do we say "you can only charge-attack on foot if the target is exactly Movement+1"? Or do we go with a mechanic (like the "success based" one below) that side-steps this question entirely?

Obviously, the first change for Charge is that there is no Mount Strength Step to add to the damage equation. So, really the only ones "charging" unmounted would be Cavalrymen or non-adept riders with the talent/skill rank bonus. Charge is their only real Damage buff, so I like the idea of letting them choose to use it more often. Oh, I like the idea of using Fearsome Charge more often, too. It also fills in this middle area, where before they were at very low (relative) damage while afoot, and damage spikes when mounted. But, do we allow the full Charge bonus when the Knack is triggered or do some other Success-based mechanic instead? Like - increasing the normal +2 to Damage for additional successes by +1 for each 2 yards moved up to Charge rank, plus spend 1 Karma on Damage?

Do we allow the lance/spear/pole-arm one-handed plus shield combo while afoot? I've been researching shield techniques and this is a lot more common that you'd think.

So, just some ideas. What do you all think?

[Slimcreeper]

I don't feel like I can speak to the mechanics at this point, but I think Telarus is on to something.

[etherial]

I really dislike the idea of unmounted charging becoming a thing in Earthdawn. I'd much rather a teamwork focus and maybe giving them more Talents that buff allies or take advantage of allies' actions.