disciplines beyond the player book

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
Sangius
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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Sangius » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:37 am

Thanks a lot for your input! Your description of the existing talents made my day. To be honest, the whole 'fight the power' thing is what brought me to the liberator discipline in the first place and I still very much like the concept. The obvious issue is that, given that we are not a slavery-focused group and speaking from a pure gamemechanic point of view, most of my talents go unused most of the time. Besides the general talents Durability and Karma Ritual, I've only really ever rolled on Melee Weapon, Disguise Self, Avoid Blow and Half-Magic. Shackle Shrug, Freedom Search, Lock Picking, Free Mind, Shout of Justice & Heart of Freedom have gone entirely unused so far and I'm afraid that might not change in the near future as integrating a lengthy period of my character infiltrating a slaver-compound into the general campaign isn't too likely to happen. So far, if we helped slaves / fought slavers, we almost always were coming from the outside, which led to me playing my character pretty much like an inspiring warrior dedicated to Lochost. Other than that, we've seen some success on a diplomatic level, but there too the liberator doesn't really offer a ton of choices (Change thought by the Lochost Questor might actually be a better fit there). All that leads me to think that maybe converting to Warrior instead might be a good idea, both for me as well as the group (which I wouldn't need to pressure as much any more to go on slavery-connected plots). On that level I am mostly reflecting whether the boastful Swordmaster on a quest for Lochost (or rather: Blork) would be a better fit, or the Warrior, shield of the weak (I feel warrior is the better fit after all). Do we have any idea what the ETA might look like on the Questor book? Or would you suggest to simply adapt the talents from 3rd? (if they are not offered for some discipline in 4th anyway)

I might actually try and see whether creating the liberator discipline by combining existing talents from 4th edition might make sense (for instance, as you point out, Battle Bellow might substitute Shout of Justice, broadening the discipline by a bit, but giving me essentially the same options from a roleplaying perspective - rallying people to fight)

I'm very much looking forward to your expanded feedback!
Last edited by Sangius on Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mataxes
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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Mataxes » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:41 am

To answer the question about the Questors book: Next year.

It's the last of the Kickstart books, and the one that requires the most development work, as I really want to tear apart the original rules and rebuild them from the ground up. RIght now all I have are a few vague ideas for the mechanical shape of a questor character, but I definitely want to give them more options when it comes to powers and abilities -- it could be that the Liberator ends up fitting into that really well... but we'll have to wait and see.
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
Line Developer: Earthdawn

Sangius
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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Sangius » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:43 am

Two thumbs up for that. If there is any way to help out (proofreading or so), just let me know.

/edit: I just reread the Discipline Combination description of the Liberator of the 3rd edition. Funny thing: Troubadour, Swordmaster and Sky Raider are all named as usually not going well along with the discipline (although I am not sure I agree there, especially when it comes to the Troubadour: Telling legends of the glorious fight against the oppressors to me seems part of the propagandistic aspect of a Liberator. Anyway, this further pushes me towards the Warrior discipline, especially as our GM already suggested to me to maybe think about becoming a Questor for Thystonius probably due to the approach of my character often being quite pleasant to that passion).

This doesn't really apply to all Liberator player out there though - so finding a way to emulate the Liberator experience in 4th edition is still a legitimate concern :)
Last edited by Sangius on Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

Telarus_KSC
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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Telarus_KSC » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:47 pm

I've always found the Liberator an interesting discipline, but not the best mechanically represented. I agree with a lot of what you guys said (oooh, looking forward to updated Questor's, Josh :) ).

For the Liberator, consider a Warrior/"Spy" (troubador "rogue"-ish) template. I'm imagining a guerrilla-fighter/Michael Weston mashup. I also kind of want to get rid of the strict race-limitation here as well, but that's just me.

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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Panda » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:06 am

I finished this after a few hours on the weekend, but it just went live:

Earthdawn Developer and I have a gaming , though, let's face it, it is really an Earthdawn blog which also happens to have some reviews.

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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Marceli » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:35 am

IMO Ed have to many NPC disciplines (i agree with Panda).
Liberator is fine but only in campaign against slaver and similar, Dwarf Scholar is totally useless (again IMO), boatman and air sailor - their dependence on ships are to strong.
Thief was bad (well it should be better now) as they could detect trap and do nothing about it and petty talent to steal and similar are almost none to use.
I decide that they are great as secondary discipline, but as primary they boring unless GM make a lot of trouble to make them usefully. But usually rest of group is bored this way.

As primary i make fun for all players are most important and secondary is rest.
In this example Liberator is great concept but as we see above it is reduced to off-fighter until rare occasion rise.

As second starting Adept is 14 year at top (checking his skills pool as bad as it is), our raw speculation show that even 20 point in skills make them incompetent but at least playable, with scale 1-10(skill) 5-6 skill make competent and 1-2 is trainee at best :P

So maybe we should make this extra discipline more flexible instead of making them so focused ?

Panda: In your draft for Liberator i rather move First Impression to option and move Unarmed (or melee) to primary. It give it more broad spec tum what it can do (fight).
Air speaking is useless talent as both side need it (at least how it was until 3ed) there is no meaning having it. I prefer see there trap detect/disarm/make(o idea what in 4ed is) - it will allow them to prepare some successful encampment runaway with surprise for enemy.
Steely Stare - why, what for ? Instead lion heart here, and mass lion heart help on other on VIII (damn forget name of this talent).
Disguise Self as primary instead of Emotion song.

Anyway your Liberator is almost playable as primary :)

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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Sangius » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:57 am

First of all: Thanks a ton, Panda, for all the work you've put into thinking about the Liberator. I am quite happy that my rambling sparked such a constructive process. I have two primary concerns with your suggestion, though: a) I assume not all talents are official 4th edition talents, or? (I am fairly sure about the Heart of Freedom one at least). Is there any extra word that'd need to be put into updating the talents to 4th edition? I am not sure at all about successes vs. result levels for instance)
and b) Opening the discipline up to other namegivers would be a pretty big step, though not one I necessarily disagree with as it fits the idea of broadening the discipline very well - and it doesn't directly affect players who want to port their existing Liberators anyhow. Anyhow, I very much like the basic theme you've worked out for the Liberator - I feel though that it would be a much more better fit for a Questor of Lochost. I know the commonalities used to be huge in the past already. But comparing your description of the Liberator "The Liberator exists to fight injustice where ever it is encountered. Whether it be the plague of slavery, bandits pillaging towns, organized crime within a city, or corrupt leadership, the Liberator uncovers the tumor and removes it. They will rally the common people to their cause. It is through them true change can be achieved. While many in power may praise the acts of Liberators, their presence may not be welcome for long. While some uphold the law, many operate in a grey area as vigilantes, doing what must be done." to the one given for the Lochost questor "Lochost’s questors can be found anywhere in Barsaive that oppression or inequity rules. Many questors of Lochost agitate for change in pursuit of equality and Namegiver dignity, opposing Theran rule and slavery. Others propose political reforms in established communities and within the Kingdom of Throal, acting as devil’s advocates in an effort to ensure that those in power continue to govern responsibly. Still others foment rebellion for the sake of change, imitating their Passion by constantly challenging the status quo." I can't help but wonder: what's the thematic difference there at all? I am not saying the change would be a bad one, after all: if the question is 'how can we make the liberator less limited' and the only difference to a questor of Lochost is the Liberator's rather strict focus on slavery, broadening the discipline very likely will result in an even bigger convergence of the two - but it nevertheless eliminates the thing that made the Liberator unique. Maybe the suggested discipline should be renamed to 'Revolutionary' ;)

PS: If this one-paragraph quote regarding the questor is a violation of some sorts, please let me know. I'll edit it out ASAP.

PPS: Is Thread Weaving moved to the first circle in general nowadays? Most disciplines used to get it at 5th circle IIRC.

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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Panda » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:28 pm

Earthdawn Developer and I have a gaming , though, let's face it, it is really an Earthdawn blog which also happens to have some reviews.

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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Panda » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:53 pm

Earthdawn Developer and I have a gaming , though, let's face it, it is really an Earthdawn blog which also happens to have some reviews.

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Re: disciplines beyond the player book

Postby Roth » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:41 pm



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