GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
Qui_Revient_de_Loin
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Qui_Revient_de_Loin » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:22 am

Another Earthdawn french fan :) and not fluent in english...
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Marceli
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Marceli » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:32 am

It can be but when it fight role is determined by talents. And warrior is not TANK, he miss agro skills. He is Primary first line attacker, he can work as support tanker (for hp) but it not work as he cannot hinder enemy. Only available is hitting hard to provoke monster to get him. If you do not do it then that you do in fight ?

Talents in fight determine what you can do.

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Heretikzer0
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Heretikzer0 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:09 pm

Tell that to the Obsidiman in full living crystal plate armour, and greatsword forged enough to make the devil grin. Tell him he's not a Tank. Aggro skills? This is not an MMO. There is a fundamental disconnect between warrior types in say World of Warcraft, than in Earthdawn. Apple and Oranges there.

Also, I'd like to know if your group is just a math combat kinda group. I've found that how your character plays and interacts with their environment can play a HUGE factor in the difference between 'Open door; Kill Monster' type gaming, and real living breathing setting world gaming that reacts to the character's presence.

Warriors in Earthdawn can be extremely offensive, and tanky at the same time. While I try to avoid using the term 'Tank' in the traditional MMO sense. What I'd like to say is that they are the Vanguard Spearhead of the combat ready disciplines.

Also, I've had years of first hand experience where Talents are not your only resources in combat. There should be an interplay of synergies between skills, thread items, knacks, environments, and most of all - guile.
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Qui_Revient_de_Loin
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Qui_Revient_de_Loin » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:52 pm

Yeah, environment interaction is really important, and fun !
And Warrior has other useful Talents: Maneuver, Heartening laugh, Tactic, Steely stare... But i would even say he lacks non-combat Talents :mrgreen:

And he is not alone, the clever synergy with Weaponsmith, Troubador, Illusionist and so on make the group really powerfull, maybe not in full front combat, but such combat is to avoid. Traps, diversion, harassment... is a must.
Another Earthdawn french fan :) and not fluent in english...
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Kasbak » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:01 pm


Marceli
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Marceli » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:57 am

I agree on most, but on 6+ circle skills are usually to weak to be really use (and our specific campaign do not give us many time for improving them - to much time is needed). In lower circles they were fine addon, but now they are really useless. Our primary skills was history based not making combat efficient.
Some talents can be useful in some situation, but i found maneuver useless, you sacrifice a lot just to make 1 attack - it is better to use reserve action (AFAIR it is it name) which with combine anticipate give you huge boost to hit (and possible armor defeat hit) without losing round.
Of course avoid direct attack is best or use any advantage, still in some combat it is impossible - flat terrain against fast movement opponents. Surprised by shadow in large hall, it is not situation you can really do much with such environment.

We got situation when know what we face and we was able to drive horror easy (it was dual with weak body and good magic), but we know what we face and prepare small surprise for him, but still it leave dozen cadavemen and 2 smaller physical horrors which we need kill by brute force.

"Tell that to the Obsidiman in full living crystal plate armour, and greatsword forged enough to make the devil grin."
Yeah he is pushover i can easy hit armor defeat hits against his poor defense and make him never hit me with use of anticipate blow(Namegiver vs Namegiver) on monster side it will be similar just monster add karma to hit and damage. In mechanical DEX > STR because of armor defeating hits, such hits shift way to much. And dual penalize: wound + knock down, i understand how powerful he could be but in term survival he is weak.

I'm not sure how your monsters are but in our fight them damn to smart and use any advantage (any boss class or medium boss :P) of course fillers attack nearest and usually stick with it, but any smarter is not moron to attack most heavy armored person with longest stick they go for easy prey.
Also please remember that ed have exact amount monster in fight XvsX in same power level (monster same number as group), 1v2 if they stronger (middle boss) and 1vs group if boss and they parry and dodge hits (or use spell/power).

As i'm not sure which circle you get experience, but above 6 or 7 fight is really different and almost anything except talent do not work (monster have to high defense for normal skills work).

As for agro skill - i mean any skill that force monster to go to fighter instead of other team member.

Qui_Revient_de_Loin
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Qui_Revient_de_Loin » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:16 am

Well, I haven't really go over 6th circle. But fight is not the emphasis in my game. And when adversity is to frightfull, I've warned my PC: "Run !".
I played it more on the dilemma (ok, you can kill it, but in the time, the villagers will be anihilated), on the horror feeling à la Cthulhu, on the social cleverness (Horror blob manipulating an entire city).

So, i think the problem isn't in the Talents, in the rules but in game's style. If you want tremoudous fignts with clever and nasty beast where you can't run, can't hide, can't trap the beast, can't heal & improve, so be it: you want challenge. And you have it, so where is the problem ? If you gain efficiency, challenge go down until the GM boost it and you're back in the same difficulty. So why trying to gain efficiency, since you have the challenge you search ?
Another Earthdawn french fan :) and not fluent in english...
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Kasbak
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Kasbak » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:31 am

This is also very true. Earthdawn has a lot more of a social focus then just pure combat. Most of the Disciplines are discussed in terms of their social, magical, and combat abilities. Compare that to a system like D&D, where your main social class is the Bard, and it is frequently considered useless.

Earthdawn is not set up to function like an MMO. You can do it, but as Qui Revient de Loin says, it will be a challenge. If that's what you are looking for though, that challenge becomes part of the fun, a puzzle to try and work out.

Also worth noting, in Journeyman Circles, my experience is that players generally aren't fighting monsters that much anymore. They've become big enough heroes that they're involved in evil plots and fighting Namegiver opponents more often than not, with most of the exceptions being horrors and horror constructs. Encounters with creatures at this point are usually more just travel hazards and distractions than a full on fight.

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Heretikzer0
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Heretikzer0 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:17 am

In terms of one on one combat (namegiver v monster of equal circles) where there its all in open ground, there is always the chance that the single namegiver will fail. That's just part of how the numbers fall, but again you've completely taken the guile out of the entire situation.

Is the monster intelligent? Can it lay traps and use cunning tactics? Does it have a fantastic grasp of certain magical attacks? If the answer is yes, then the Obsidiman can have a rough time of it. But the strength of how a single combatant can conjure up advantages is also in question. If you do just basic math combat Open Door;Kill Monster routine like that, you're going to have issues. But, if you commit to an environment where the Obsidiman can also conjure up advantages (like say, higher ground, companions, dropping flaming kegs of oil, fighting the creature on a precipice risking falling damage, or better yet... flying up in a drakkar and spewing fire at it from the artillery stations.) Suddenly the monster may have only a light chance.

Don't fight harder, fight smarter. A possible answer to overpowering enemy, is overpowering death scenario. I'm not scared or too proud to use explosives to drop a building on a horror if I learn its too risky to engage in personal combat. Traps, misdirections, magic, explosives, minions, illusions... these all work.

Scenario: the party lures a big nasty into a trap on a medium sized riverboat. It stows away and emerges at night onto the deck and attempts to murder the crew, only to learn while it hid - the crew was replaced with stitched dummies. When finally reaching a certain range, the Archer of the party fires a single flame arrow from the dock and ignites a powder keg on the deck of the ship. There are also smaller satchels of minor explosives laden all around the interior of the ship itself. Ship goes boom. Big nasty is defeated, even IF it manages to barely survive. Oh, can it swim with 10 death rating left and several wounds in shark infested waters? Archer gloats. Exit stage left.

In my games, with my players or with the other GM we try really hard to find multiple ways to defeat enemies in combat situations. This gives the players something to do other than roll dice and pray. Guile often wins the day. (cue Street Fighter music) There was a general once who said something to the effect of (im paraphrasing it): "Throughout history, more battles have been won through trickery, than sheer brute force."
Last edited by Heretikzer0 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Heretikzer0
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Re: GM's Guide -- Anything you would like to see?

Postby Heretikzer0 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:20 am

I'd also like to point out, that big dumb monsters and horrors are not the same thing. Completely different tactics to engage and destroy. Usually, when really nasty and powerful horrors are involved, the bets are off - as are the kid gloves.
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