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Interesting stuff, all around, but I think it strays away from one of the design goals of ED4, that being a very shallow learning curve for the basic game mechanics.

Hm, I thought of something that resolves a lot of the conflict in having every Matrix's rank = the character's Circle. Make that the special ability of the "free" ones, and make the character pay legend for the Optional Talent Matrices. This keeps the pseudo-Vancian feel of "you can only fit so much incantation in you head at once", allows mages to perform at their circle, but they must specialize (invest LP to max out the Optional Matices) to be really top-teir spell heavy.

I really don't understand the complaint of 'it's so important I MUST buy it,' in regards to durability, matrices, or karma ritual. Each of which I have seen numerous players raise at various speeds. Similarly, I have never heard a warrior or swordmaster complain that they felt they MUST raise melee weapons, though I can't understand how that would not be an equally valid complaint.

Personally, I don't like the 'talent but not a talent' concept. My players have never complained about matrices, and I've had some that chose to pick up less than their full compliment because they felt a particular talent option was worthwhile.

That said, if matrices must stop being talents, I don't think they should be discipline abilities either. I like the notion that they are constructs, wholly separate from the caster's pattern or that of his discipline (and would make more sense given their quick evolution pre-scourge). Perhaps give two free matrices at first, which have to be constructed & attached by, or at least with the help of, the caster's master. Thereafter, the mage can create his own matrices using a threadweaving knack, the numbers of which could be limited by threadweaving rank, and simply cost LP and perhaps some raw materials to create. I prefer this concept to the talent-but-not-a-talent option, which really doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, 7th level is way too long for willforce.

Perhaps the Matrices could be more of a crafting thing - like astral basket weaving. The quantity and quality of the matrices would depend on the threadweaving rank. It would cost Legend points to make a new ones. The matrix damage system could be more robust, and spell casters would need to replace destroyed matrices.

Oh. Oooh, even. Keep Matrices as a Talent, but collapse them into just a couple of Talents, with a good reason to improve them.. and, if giving every Talent dice is a design plan, incorporate Lou's suggestion.

That's lovely.

Rags? As the Official Bestower of Brilliance Recognition (I appointed myself, just now. See? I even drew up this certificate!): You are brilliant.

I mean, you're right - it's not totally perfect right out of the gate, but it's awfully clever.

I'm going to take some time to think about this and come back.

j0hn - the problem with Matrices being critical is that it's a recurring thing, that eats up virtually all of a Magician's Talent Options from the start. Melee Weapons compares better to Spellcasting, and yeah, nobody minds that. Imagine instead if Warriors had to buy Sheath to carry a weapon, and Grip to hold one, and Swing to attack with one, and Strike to actually roll damage after that... and only Grip was a Discipline Talent. With Durability, you'd get to actually make a Talent Choice at 5th Circle, but there at 5th Circle is a whole new set of actually-core Talents set aside in the Talent Options, largely on the grounds that they can't be Discipline Talents because Sky Raiders and Swordmasters need them, too, and the Disciplines need to be different, right?

Talent Options gave a degree of versatility to everybody but Magicians. Spellcasters all still look the same.