Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Tattered Rags » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:46 pm


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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby shiinx » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:55 am

@Mataxas: You stated, you don't want to make the basic spell slot management more complex. However, I think the currently laid out plans are exactly that. If not too complex, then at least too confusing. The problem is not one of accurate description but of consistency. In a good system, you have some basic mechanics and rules; you can base on them and derive from them without later contradicting or restricting them. Sometimes, this probably cannot be avoided. However, if there are too many exceptions to the rule, especially for core functionalites such as "spell slots", new players might get confused, because what they just learned about one aspect of the game suddenly does not hold true anymore for another aspect of the game.

Let's take a look at it:
Spell matrices are both, free abilities and talents. That already sounds strange. I know, there are even matrices stored in items, but they are introduced at the far end of the book, whereas this discrepancy between free abilities and talents is right there in the front with the discipline descriptions. New players will ask themselves, why do I get this as free ability? Is it different than the talent? Could I get another talent for free, instead? Why do other disciplines not get free talents?
Then, there is the second inconsistency. Spell matrices are talents, but they don't require legend point costs and don't have a rank. They simply fill an optional talent slot. Again, the new player will be confused. Why is this talent singled out and completely different than anything else I just learned about talents?

I think, on its own the new spell matrices system feels completely tagged on as an afterthought (even if you apparently put a lot of thought in it). As there are no other talents that use the same mechanics, spell matrices feel completely singled out, not as something belongs to the core system. I am not too adverse to having matrices as free abilities, Windlings are also getting Astral Sight free as an example. But matrices being talents while not conforming to any of the talent mechanics feels strange. You could still resolve this, by saying matrices are not talents but something else that can be plugged into an optional talent slot. But then, you should also introduce other "things" that can be plugged into the optional talent slots. Then, you have a proper mechanic that does not feel tagged on - but on the other hand, you have another mechanic which adds a layer of complexity that you already didn't want to introduce in the core rules for knacks.

As knacks are not an option, I would go with a solution similar to what Utsukushi suggested. Have a single matrix talent with a restriction on how many matrices the character can create and auxiliary talents to boost matrices to Enhanced or Armored. You can even explain this nicely with in game terms as the pattern of the character can only support so many additions depending on how big his legend is. The description does not need to be complicated and with some good examples, it should be readily understandable. But most important, the talent remains consistent to all the other talents. The players might think that it is one of the complexer talent, but at least it works as what they learned to expect from a talent.
As this solution only requires one talent slot per matrix types, this frees space for the magicians to take other optional talents.
As for the requirement to spend legend points on learning spells, we have made good experiences with this in our group. The costs are not prohibitively high so that our magic users don't learn flavour spells. And frankly, if one wants to improve a character, be it vertically (in talent ranks or circles) or horizontally (number of talents, spells), legend points should be spent. However, I currently do not have a good in-game explanation for the legend point cost, as the spells will still reside in the grimoire and the magician will not be able to swap them just from memory. So the legend points are effectively dumped into his grimoire.

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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby kosmit » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:38 am

Just make magicians the only disciplines which have 2 discipline talents per circle and one of them is matrix since it is essential for their discipline. It fits more to core mechanic than creating rankless abilities. They are confusing and looks like put by force.

Others may think that giving two talents is making magician op but remember that they will have to spend more legend points.

In my opinion the only thing that people complain about is that matrices are obligatory talent options and not that they are LP sinks (in my opinion there is nothing like LP sink and everything is worth investing).
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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Telarus_KSC » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:46 pm

Let me lead in with this: I really like the idea of giving a small number of free Matrices to casters, which they don't have to fiddle with during advancement. Matrices are core to the caster concept in Earthdawn in the current Age (no matter what came before), and as a GM I can TOTALLY get players into playing casters faster if I explain that the core Matrices are basically astral equipment that your Master who initiated you tied into your pattern. Don't worry about fiddling with them on the sheet, & think of them as "astral objects you can slot spells into". These core Matrices have a rank equal to your Discipline's Circle.

Now, you want an extra one? Pay Legend Points or burn some starting Ranks. See, really good for introducing new players to the whole concept over the first few cirlces.

My primary concern with all Matrices ranking up alongside your Circle comes in at Circle 5.

You've just gotten the automatic Enhanced-Matrix. It's automatically Rank 5. Now, as it is currently setup, you have the choice between grabbing some other flavorful talents at Rank 1 (Evidence Analysis, Lifesight, etc), OR you could have another Rank 5 Enhanced Matrix. Both options cost 200 LP to "buy" a journeyman talent (no indication otherwise).

This is now a major false choice. Otherwise, it takes over 3,000 LP to rank up an Enhanced Matrix to 5. I can have TWO of my circle 4 or 5 spells slotted into a Matrix that comes with a free thread! Awesome!

So everyone will buy it (& probably the earlier base Matrices as well).

This would be resolved if Matrices are regarded as regular Talents, following all the Talent rules... so the Optional Matrices cost LP to purchase and rank up. BUT, the ones granted by the Ability rank up as you circle as part of the Ability. This can be directly tied to advancement rituals, where the master and student work to weave more power into the student's existing Core Matrices. Hell, call it out in the talent description, "Core Matrices (granted by Discipline abilities) have a Rank equal to the character's Circle in the Discipline it was learned from. Players do not spend Legend Points to increase the rank of Core Matrices as part of advancement."

(There are other concerns, like what does "no rank" mean to Versatility casters, Multi-disciplined characters, matrix-items, & losing the flavor of trying to find a good lower-Circle spell to put in your lower rank Matrix, but those are definitely secondary to the false-choice moment).

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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Dougansf » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:15 pm


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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby sirserafin » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:50 am


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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby j0hn » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:21 pm


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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Tanthalas » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:46 pm

The multi matrix talent Utsukushi described is interesting and I think would be balanced. But one of the stated design goals seems to be 'easier book-keeping'. I doubt they would go for this. But as usual, could be a cool optional rule based on what the final ruling is.
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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Stormcrow » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:00 pm


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Re: Eleventh Hour Preview: Wizard

Postby Mataxes » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:49 pm

So, a proposal...

At First Circle, magicians get two standard matrices. These advance in rank along with Circle. At Fifth Circle, one of these standard matrices is upgraded to an enhanced matrix. Additional matrices are talent options, that have a rank and are purchased the same way as any other talent, and are functionally the same as they are now.

The follow-up question at this point is how many optional matrices do we offer? One each of standard and enhanced (giving them a total of 4 across the first 8 circles -- 2 standard and 2 enhanced)? Or perhaps up it slightly to 2 standard and 1 enhanced (giving a total of 5 max when all is said and done -- three standard and two enhanced).

At this point, the general design theory behind the Disciplines breaks down into three groups:

Magicians -- lowest durability, get two free matrices that advance with circle

Support types (ex: weaponsmith, troubadour) -- Middling durability, get one free talent/skill that advances with circle (largely to cover things that were previously under half-magic like crafting, navigation, etc)

Combat -- Highest durability
Josh Harrison --
Troubadour and Magic Theorist
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