Feedback (for ED4) on Spirits and Summoning

[Stormcrow]

[Telarus_KSC]

These are good concerns. I would like to see some of the summoning terms defined as Game Mechanics, which may help avoid these issues.

For example: "Summon" .... does this mean that the Elementalist or Nethermancer is actually moving the Spirit from Astral Space to Physical Space? (I.E., they help the spirit "Manifest"...I would say Yes on that, as many spirits don't even have the Manifest ability.....)

Similarly, we can define "Binding/Bound", and other mechanics to clear up the Summoning procedures. What does "having 2 (two) Rank 2 Earth Sprits Bound to you" mean? I can see a lot of this making it into a new magic book, actually

[Etorian]

All this is good discussion. I lean toward more versatile use. What if the limit is only on what you can control in your presence at one time. Then combat will stay limited while characters can maintain a variety of spirits in reserve. Also duration of spirit is a limiter. Will expand when not on cell phone.

[Etorian]

Ok, I have a keyboard so here we go.

One option I've thought of is to have the number of spirits you can "control" (Summon Rank/whatever or a stricter number if we want) be only what you are maintaining dominance over in the physical plane/in your immediate area in Astral. Therefore you could have bargains struck with other spirits that are in there Astral habitats chilling out waiting to heed your call but only have a few actively doing things for you in combat.

Another thought is more of an open ended bargaining system where we maintain a hard cap of spirits you can "control" regardless of around you or wherever they may be in Astral but increase the versatility of the bargaining. I would think you would then be bargaining for how many tasks a spirit would do for you perhaps a straight roll against the spirits social defense and use the new success system where every +5 after success is an additional task the spirit will perform. (or something like that) I would also give bonus tasks for good RPing during the bargain to encourage such things. This would make the spirits you are using more able to be a "useful" spirit and a "combat" spirit. I don't really like having them pigeon holed into roles anyway seeing as they are sentient beings.

As far as what "Summon" means I've always thought you were pulling them from their native metaplane (Elemental plane of wood and what have you) to our realm through Astral Space and trapping them here which is why it takes some bargaining to get them to come around. The "Binding" then is the tether that is keeping them from returning until the duration has expired or they have fulfilled your "task(s)" at which point you release them from the trap earlier.

Just my take. What are others'?

[bleeding]

Never used the spirits and summoning, it seemed to add complexity at the expense of fun and it looked very very powerful, too powerful.

I could have some ideas to make that more playable if a player wants to use them.

[jizerai]

The gaming group that I play with, both as a GM and player, have found Summoning to be so overpowered in fact, that we made massive overhauls to the system itself. For example requiring the summoner to either bargain (using Legend Points or Blood Magic to bind it, or perform some kind of service for the spirit) or force it into submission, which could become very dangerous if you failed. But I digress.

The root of the problem, we found, is the Aid Summoner power, which allows a summoner to more or less double his or her step in any given Talent at the cost of a few points of strain. This severally upsets the game balance of any group when dealing with opposition in combat - although, if the magician has other magical abilities they can be augmented as well, making almost any other group member obsolete. This, by the way, is just as much a problem for players as it is for game masters, since at least I have a very strong sense of playing a game where the "bad guys" are making sense and using their own abilities in a reasonable way.

This, in my opinion, is a problem that has to be addressed. I do like the concept of summoning, but there are powers and rules that can be used for evil, if given the opportunity to do so.

[Xastiin]

In our group summoning (both by elementalists & nethermancers) has happened quite a few times, but almost always in safe areas and very rarely for combat (except for specific spells that summon things). Usually the summoning talents are used for utility or information.