Feedback (for ED4) on Spirits and Summoning

[kosmit]

I will adress everything tomorrow but now I will only say that it should be encouraged:
summon spirits outside fight, bargain with them and then "call for them to help" in the fight.

[Etorian]

[Kasbak]

With regards to components: I have always run this as a soft requirement, since it really only applies to elemental spirits, and I didn't want them to be unbalanced with ally spirits. Yes, the summoner needed a source of the element in question, but it didn't have to be a large source. A single drop of water could potentially be sufficient to summon a great form water elemental, for example. Balance with ally spirits is my only concern in making it a harder requirement.

On duration: we have always run with the mechanic that summoning durations last at maxumum until the next sunrise/sunset, which ever comes first. No one has ever gotten so specific on it for it to be a problem, but I would say we base it on the location where the summoning took place. It has remained balanced for all issues we have run into, and it keeps a nice symbolic value.

On player vs GM control: I have always based this on the nature of the task asigned to the spirit. If it is a drawn out task where the summoner can give specific commands within its context, then I give the player control. If the summoner gives a task for the spirit to carry out autonomously with no further updates, then I control it so that the spirit is acting on its own.

[Utsukushi]

I've played every Edition of Earthdawn except 2nd, and I've never done more than read through the Summoning section. It looks neat, but it always feels more like an `idea' than a `system'. So for me to actually start using it I think is more of an organizational issue than anything else. The rules and options need to be laid out clearly.

With the way it sounds like Talents are being handled, it seems likely that Elementalists and Nethermancers will (or at least might) have a "Summoner Track" among their options. If it becomes `a way to shape your character', instead of just a `tacked-on Half-Magic afterthought', I think that would address a lot of balance issues by itself; it becomes an investment, and is at the cost of some other ways you could have gone. Of course, in line with the latest blog entry, there still are balance issues - it can't be easily `the best' way to develop.

It would be neat if Weaponsmiths also had some access to it, for the binding-spirits-for-crafting purposes.

I really like the idea of arranging it so that Summoning and Bargaining are expected to happen in a quieter place and then `called back' in battle, but I would like a faster, short term option that can be used in the heat of the moment... but that should be a dramatic choice, something costly and difficult, maybe inherently dangerous.

I love the idea of a year-and-a-day binding as an option - it's a bridge between daily Summonings and Binding-to-Enchant Items, so it makes sense there, and brings some whole new options.

[Etorian]

I like the idea of a summoner track and even possibly a conjurer discipline in a supplement that would have access to elementals and ally spirits (and god forbid horrors as an NPC/late circle option with dire risk/reward) while abandoning spellcasting. They could perhaps have the ability to modify spirits statistically/bond them temporarily to items/bond them to people like the new spell(s) being developed.

Balancing for summoning right now needs to really be looked at before any of that would be doable. I definitely want summoning to not feel "tacked on" it's long overdue for an overhaul.

Most important to me is the multiple attacks and spell actions because I always want to limit rolls per turn rather than increase them. If we can streamline that along with multiple attack talents (I've allowed one roll that targets all defenses, and a optional take the average of your damage roll) but that's probably a whole other thread. I hope we can make summoning viable.

I also like Weaponsmiths (Elementals) and Songsmiths (Ally Spirits perhaps) to be able to summon since it is key to item creation in this world.

As far as the faster summon I'd be real hesitant to let that go. If I were to do it maybe a mechanic similar to raw magic where the character is foregoing the proper rights and summoning circles and using his own pattern to make it happen thus exposing him to tons of strain and potential horror marks. It would add a lot of drama and make it rare, which is what I would want if that were to be allowed.

I like longer term binding for all sorts of reasons thematically and optionwise which is why I proposed it. I saw a sunset/sunrise limit mentioned, I think that is an old Shadowrun concept if I'm not mistaken. It makes for a good hard cap to limit summoning's power but I like the idea of being able to send spirits out as emissaries for a character/NPC or charging them with guarding important sites. You could find spirits that had been bound for long periods of time then corrupted and the like... just more options for the characters and the GM. What are other peoples thoughts on it?

[Stormcrow]

I may have missed it as there are a lot of information in this thread but I think I see an issue with some of the new proposed rules. I apologise if this has been dealt with already I just want to check t's been considered. I like the idea of bargaining outside of combat for aid sometime later, but would this not again lead to the unwelcome situation of multiple spirits being summoned very quickly inside of combat? The character could summon and strike bargains with 100s of Spirits in preparation for combat then recall them every time he gets in to trouble. I still think summoning/ resummoning such powerful entities should take a long time regardless of pre existing bargains. Again, I apologise if I haven't digested everything. I've been reading the thread in fits and starts.

[Etorian]

So far in the discussion it's been proposed that you can only maintain Summoning Rank worth of Spirit Rating spirits at any given time. (ie. a character with summoning rank 8 could maintain 1 Rating 8 or 2 Rating 4 etc.)

Also proposed was the ability to go beyond that limit with a Contest of Wills with the additional Spirit(s) with the character suffering a penalty to the Contest equal to the additional rating that is being attempted. (ie. The summoner with 8 Ranks has a Rank 8 Spirit and now wants a Rank 2. He can try it but will have a -2 on his Contest of Wills and if he loses the spirit is summoned but free to do as it pleases likely not happy to be there) We never really talked about whether the summoner looses control of all spirits or just the new one and if it is all would the old ones just not respond if summoned (assuming they are not present) or manifest pissed off.

We've also talked about a hard limit on number of spirits beyond that 3 was suggested, I also suggested summoning Rank/5 or Rank/3 minimum of 1 depending on how many we want around. (I lean toward less)

Hope that helps you catch up a little.

If anyone has any ideas throw them out! It's all just fodder for the devs at this point. I think we've got some good things going though.

[Kasbak]

I like the raw summoning idea, and making the formation of a summoning circle a requirement for a normal summoning. Say you specify that a summoning circle takes at least 1 minute to draw out properly. This wouldn't entirely eliminate an on-the-fly safe summoning, but would greatly reduce how viable it is in combat. Or to flesh it out even more, make it 1 minute per tier of spirit by strength rating (so 1 for SR 1-4, 2 for 5-8, and so on). This would give in game creedence to the summoning circle trope, and would make summoners more powerful within their work space, since they would have their summoning circles drawn out beforehand.

I don't know that raw magic specifically would be best to describe the effect, since it's not so much channeling raw energy as it is opening a hole somewhere else and trying to contain said hole with just your raw willpower. Though I do think you could still use the warping damage mechanic for damage to the summoner when a spirit breaks free, basing it in the spirit's SR. I don't think you would be susceptable to a Horror Mark this way, but in its place you have to deal with the spirit that has now broken free and is likely going amok. Better have your proton pack ready.

[Stormcrow]

[Etorian]

I assumed the number of spirits summoned (max of rank) would be the max maintainable period regardless of sending them off to be resummoned. So no matter how many times you summon no more than say rank/5 spirits under control whether on call or in your presence. Otherwise you're right it gets way out of hand

On a cell phone so sorry for the minimal response