ED4 Preview #1

[Henghyoke]

OK, so I was right the first time. /phew!

[Stormcrow]

These are all interesting changes. I've read all the previews now but I wanted to take some time to think about them rather than giving my initial reaction. I've think I've settled on an opinion now but would like a bit more information in some cases.

Changes to result levels.
I have to say that I think this is pure genius. I love this change as it keeps the core of the philosophy of the step system but reduces a hell of an amount of clunkiness of play. Every time I explore the implications of this change I like it more.

Reducing and simplifying Talents.
My first reaction to this was negative because I feared that it meant reducing the variety between the Disciplines if it were taken too far. This variety and the potential to create more is one of the main strengths of Earthdawn IMO. The example I came up with as an extreme was you could blend melee, missile, throwing etc. all into one Talent called attack. However, after thinking about it, I think I get it. It is a bit pointless and inefficient to have a lot of talents repeating the same text. It's much more efficient to have generic rules for a single Talent and then explain the limitations of their use within the Discipline description. So even in the extreme case I mentioned you could have a single Talent called attack but say in the Discipline description. This can only be used with Melee weapons etc. I was wondering if this was the route you were thinking of going down.

Changes to Armour defeating hits.
I'm still struggling to resolve this one and have quite complicated opinions as a result. I am coming from the point of view of a GM, who has run games to Master Circles, so I believe I understand the rationale behind the change. Sometimes the unpredictability of armour defeating hits for and against PCs enhance the narrative but it can also be very damaging to it. Also, the mechanic of armour defeating hits is a cool one but it makes it difficult for the GM to balance encounters. I'm not a GM who thinks every encounter should be balanced and structured as I like there to be a clear progression in power. However, there are occasions when you very much want to challenge the PCs and the only way to ensure by following the current system is by putting in opponents that are far more powerful than they are. however, this makes it more likely that there will be multiple PC deaths. The other side to that coin is I sometimes avoid putting mythical or legendary opponents in my stories even though they really should have a role at such high circles because it's too easy for someone to kill them with a lucky hit if they were inclined.

The other side of the coin is that AD hits are a really cool and simple mechanic which speeds up combat. There are two things I don't like about the replacing mechanic. I think +2 is too low and it will make almost no difference in high circle play. I also believe it goes the wrong direction and is a more cumbersome rule than the one already in existance. I am not saying the sums are difficult but they will slow an already cumbersome combat down again. I also recognise that to up this damage will make things even slower as it's slightly harder to calculate. I like the suggestion of adding a d6 to the damage roll much better and don't think that going up and down the step table is as good as this as again it slows things down. Adding the d6 might be more damage than your comfortable with and there is also the chance it will explode however I have a suggestion to potentially limit it in line with the existing mechanics that you have put forward. Why not say that for every success level above the target number the character may spend a karma on the damage test. This is a simple mechanic that dows not involve calculation in line with the rest of the rules, it's resource limited and it still allows for small level of unpredictibility as there is a chance of dice explosion. Just thought it would be worth exploring.

[etherial]

[Telarus_KSC]

Hmmmm, that's a really interesting idea. I don't think 1 Karma Die per extra Success level scored would work with the math of the Step System, tho. Let's explore this, I might be wrong...

Not all characters (things with stat blocks) have a Karma Pool. So this would have to be an option. If it was an option in the Base rules of my game, (& considering the +5/Success Level targets), I'd go with +2 per extra Success, OR 2 extra Successes for +1 Karma on the follow-up roll Damage roll.


Take the Archer's Mystic Aim, for example. There, you have 3 rolls chained over 2 rounds, and based on the logic above @ 1 Success per Karma, the damage roll would be crazy.

Let's do some math for just the proposed changes, assuming d6 Karma. (Wow, +5/Success Level finally clears up the math for easy %chance calculations with AnyDice!!)

[Circle 4 Winding Archer vs Cave Troll - ED3 stats w/ proposed ED4 changes by Mataxes]
Step 10+Karma Mystic Aim (lets call it Step 14) vs Spell Def 6 = 1 Success (hits) 93% chance

Step 12 Missile Weapons + Rank 4 Mystic Aim + Karma is Step 20 vs Physical Defense of 8 = Hits with 98% chance, 2 Success (85% chance), 3 Successes (59%), 4 Successes (33%), 5 Successes (17%)

Damage Rolls by Success & % Chance for Windling Bow & +1 Forged Arrows:
Step 8/2d6 (1s 98%), Step 10/2d8 (2s 85%), Step 12/2d10 (3s 59%), Step 14/2d12 (4s 33%), Step 16/d12+d8+d6 (5s 17%)

Niiiice. Now, compare back to the Troll. Note the ED3 Armor Value (which does seem very high at first to me, but they wear Chainmail, lol).
Average Damage - Armor(7) vs Wound Threshold(12):
1s = Step 8-7 vs 12 is a 3.94% chance of a Wound
2s = Step 10-7 vs 12 is a 8.13% chance of a Wound
3s = Step 12-7 vs 12 is a 13.4% chance of a Wound
4s = Step 14-7 vs 12 is a 21.18% chance of a Wound
5s = Step 16-7 vs 12 is a 31.41% chance of a Wound


Yah, that seems a bit too high for that armor. See, the Windling Archer scores 3 Successes 60% of the time or so (nice, we spend 2 Karma on this combo), but even then would only Wound the Troll once every 8-12 rounds or so (ooh...remember, this is a 2 round Combo!).

So, I suppose if it's +2 per additional Success, then Armor values have the be recalculated.
Or, I could see going with +3 per extra Success, or even +4....which would shift the Wound percentage for a 2 Success hit to 13.4%, 3 Successes would be 31.4%, etc). These are interesting numbers to play with now that the +5/Success Level is there.

Hm, I want to run this again against Armor 5 (which is what DR chain armor does in most Pathfinder alternate rules). This might take a spreadsheet.

[Slimcreeper]

Go Telarus Go!

Figure it out! Give us more charts and lists! I cannot really visualize any of it but I find it strangely reassuring!

[Stormcrow]

[Mataxes]

The scaling thing is the aspect of the new mechanic that is potentially the most problematic. Given the overall power-band of Earthdawn, how do you figure something that doesn't result in either being useless at the high end, or too overpowering at the low end?

Downscaling the armor ratings of upper end creatures (dragons, horrors, etc) is one thing, having higher end talents/spells that either grant additional successes or change the bonus per extra success (+3 or +4 per success) is another... there are many design spaces that can be tinkered with here.

Heck, I hadn't even looked at the idea of having it grant straight bonus dice. That's not a bad idea, and is in one sense a little bit easier to figure than a traditional step bonus.

[Telarus_KSC]

Aside: Yah, I've been doing something like that with my mass combat rules. If you score a Wound on a Unit, you get a d6 bonus "Wound" damage die (& if it rolls a 5+, it indicates one of the Unit members has dropped with a serious wound).

Yes, I was running numbers just below (Adept) & above (Cave Troll) the Journeyman cut-off. I had been thinking of the higher-circles, but I wanted a base-line to compare off of.

Anyway, the extra d6 idea jumped out at me too. Maybe tie it to Adept Circle (or because all NPCs/Creatures have a "Circle rating", just scale it up with that for non-Adpets as well), where you get +2 per bonus Success Level, until after Circle 5 (Journeyman+) where they just get a bonus d6 per extra Success Level. Interesting stuff to consider, I really like how you've opened up design spaces in the mechanic here.

[Henghyoke]

[Rogan Rubyeye]

Have to agree with the combining of multiple talents that do practically the same thing into one. As a note its probably better to leave different versions & subtle variations of how a talent works down to Talent Knacks.

Not so sure about replacing the Result categorys with straight +# bonuses that apparently have no limit to the number of "successes" that can be achieved. The limitations of Extraordinary being the highest Result level actually is part of how the Earthdawn mechanics work so well for me (as well as the charm of the system). With just numeric bonuses it begins to shift more to feel like D&D number crunching - ie: dry and prone to rules lawyism. Earthdawn (for myself) should be more than numbercrunching munchkinism and the different Result levels implied the roleplaying aspect rather whilst retaining the viable mechanics of how well/bad the test did. It feels better for me as a GM to say "You've got a Good hit," rather than "That's a +(whatever number) bonus."

I guess I'm a bit old fashioned here and stuck in my ways, but the Result level system worked for me - it was one more thing that seperated Earthdawn and made it a unique games system. As much as the D20 and Armour Class (THAC0) is synomious with D&D or the number of successes/Hits is with Storyteller/Shadowrun. I'd prefer not to see a rules system that works and has the flavour of the game be simply replaced because, "Hey, these games have done it" or "It's not new anymore!" And please, by the Passions, PLEASE don't go for gimmicky "special" symbol dice. Good old-fashioned numbered ones are fine, plus they promote numeracy skills. (Would be nice to see the D4s back maybe, but no [hack, spit] D20s).

Finally, the Armour Defeating Hit - I like it. Not going to change me there. Never had that much of a problem with it and it allows for players who manage to deal one on a tough opponent a good sense of achievement. Sure the PC can suffer them too, but then that's what shields and parrying and Avoid Blow are good for. Wearing additional pieces of armour - helmets, bracers, greaves (I use house rules to add a Deflection bonus to the EX # needed for ADH's), or using shields, or even having superior quality (or magical) items (defeated on EO # results), and not to mention certain combat Options make the ADH effect managable. Especially if there's also the 3x Step # maximum Damage cap (except for magical weapons/attacks).