New Wrinkles

[Baravakar]

Here is my solution to this whole debate:

Once you have the rules for any game, you are not required (by law) to use every rule exactly as written.

This goes for everyone, it is a game. The book lists the base rules. If you don't like a rule as written, consult with your friends and find a compromise for your game. (If you don't like that the ED3 and ED4 rules cap ability score increases at 3, then don't use it)

We all have different opinions on how our Earthdawn games should work. They are all valid for ourselves.

On a personal note, I truly appreciate that this board is here and so many people provide feedback for each post. (Thank you all).

We all have a passion for Earthdawn. Share, debate, converse, but lets all be civil to the community.

[Dale]

Our groups typically used the random roll 4d6 keep 3 highest. In addition, I always let my players roll 3 sets and choose which set they wanted. They then assigned the stat numbers where they wanted and applied the racial modifiers. I may do this again when I start my next game up soon.

On the karma front I always found the cost and die differences odd. I can see having different costs and different die but I think the costs should be flipped. Troll and Obsidian getting a d4 should have had the cheaper costs while the windlings with d10 should have had the higher costs. I actually did my own chart of dice/costs that did just that for several games. It is all listed as d6 now and even in 3rd edition they all cost the same. Still, interesting how things played out.

[Cosmic Hunter]

You know, quite frankly, I guess I am just not smart enough to really have an actual opinion about the numbers aspect when it comes to the merits of point buy vs. random rolling. I am also not a developer of the rules in any way, so that may make some of my stuff moot anyway. So why I am typing this out I cannot for the life of me understand, but here we are...

Though to be honest, ( I also want to sincerely apologize upfront because I am not trying to sound like a jerk, I think you are voicing your opinion that you are entitled to), I'm not sure anyone could provide you an answer that you would find acceptable. Not necessarily that you were looking for an answer in any way, shape, or form.

But still, I would like to reiterate what Baravakar said (mainly because well, they got to it before I could ), in that you are not beholden to every single rule as expressly laid out in the rule book. I'm sure with some amount of finessing you could probably just introduce earlier 4d6 take highest 3 plus/minus racial mods from earlier editions if you like. We all have our individual Earthdawn experiences that we like, and we should be proud of those.

As for Karma, well the same really applies I think. I suppose you could make players spend some legend points when they undertake their karma ritual if you wanted a cost associated with it once again. Maybe it's just my personal opinion, but I like to see my players do some truly amazing things when the mood strikes them, (as I am sure most GMs do), it helps to have that karma die there to help them do that. The less "barriers" make it easier for players to feel like they can do that stuff(in my experience at least). Unless you just have some real "winners" in your group who greedily grub absolutely everything because they can exploit the system and they will, in which case I'm not sure any solution is necessarily a great one.

So yeah, nothing really all that great I'm sure, just some considerations. Though so far some of the stuff highlighted here has made me think about things in ways I wouldn't have necessarily thought of before.

[DruidNei]

Our playgroup threw legend costs for karma out of the window and we're not looking back. After advancing a few circles we found karma costs insignificant. Only thing they do is to hinder progress a bit at the beginning of the adventures. They never increased depth of our games nor are they a good balancing factor for the races. Trolls could care less if they pay 3 or 7 or 10 LP for small pool of karma which used to be d4 anyway.

We found having to perform 30 min Karma Ritual was enough to stop players from adding karma to every roll.

[Roth]

My point is not about having a roll method for character generation.

My *issue*
Obsidiman, Troll: d4 , 20 / 10
Dwarf, Elf, T'Skrang: d6 , 25 / 10, 10, 8
Human, Ork: d8 , 40 / 6, 7
Windling: d10 , 60 / 5

You compare this with 3e and you spot that for a Windling to finally get to their original max karma Obsidimen and Trolls have a 50% increase in their karma and an upgrade from d4 to d6. Windlings also have a 100% increase in cost. Windlings also have a went from a d10 down to a d6. Basically every Troll and Obsidimen in 3e got a huge windfall while Windlings were, screwed over(?). Dwarf, Elf, Obsidimen, and Troll got a nice bump. Human Ork, Windling, and somewhat T'Skrang got bent over the barrel. Perhaps the balance is that half got upgraded and half got down-graded?

With the new Karma, why wasn't something at least added to the races that lost in the 'Karma War'?

The number one complaint I've had over the years about ED is: "takes too much Legend Points to increase talents, hell it takes too many Legend Points period." And they are right.
My current house rule for this is every talent has it's own legend point track. They look a bit like this
Missile Weapons: action____ strain____ Attribute____+Rank____=Step____ Action Dice_____
Legend Points___________ :100:200:300:500:800:1300:2100:3400:5500:8900:14400:23300:37700:61000:98700
With this method a player only needs 98,700 to reach rank 15(circle1-4) instead of the 258,200 it currently takes.

[Kasbak]

[Flowswithdrek]

[Panda]

From the quotes, those are the 1E karma dice, maximum karma / karma cost per point (with costs separated by race if they are different by those of the same step).

[Roth]

Sorry guess that is 1e,2e,edc speak

Obsidiman & Troll: karma die: d4, maximum karma: 20, cost per point 10
Dwarf, Elf, T'Skrang: karma die: d6, maximum karma: 25 cost per point: 10, 10, 8
Human & Ork: karma die: d8, maximum karma: 40,cost per point: 6, 7
Windling: karma die: d10, maximum karma: 60 cost per point: 5

[Mataxes]

I understand his argument, I just don't feel it is being supported very well.

The karma die in ED1/2 is tied to the net racial modifiers. I have been aware of this since the ED1 days -- it's no surprise.

However, Roth seems to be saying that the other aspects -- LP cost per point, starting and maximum karma -- are also key aspects to the balance of the ED1 system. I just don't see that -- what balance is involved in giving dwarfs & elves a different cost from t'skrang (for example)?

I don't have time right now to go into more detail, but that's what I'm getting out of the karma thing.