Questions and answers...

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Mataxes » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:34 pm

That's the plan.
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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Cthulhu_Wakes » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:46 am

Outstanding, guys.

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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Lys » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:56 am

With respect to thread items, they largely seemed under powered in comparison to what you could do using the enchantment and spell naming rules. Specifically the enchantment rules established that enchantments could be based off spells, and the spell naming rules established that each spell has a legend point cost equal to buying a Warden-level Talent equal to its Spell Circle. Logically this would mean that an effect that makes a weapon that cast Flame Strike on hitting an enemy should cost 500 LP, which would be a Thread Rank 3 effect for a Journeyman Thread Item or Rank 4 Novice Thread Item. Yet the usual effect for that rank tends to be rather less impressive.

For another example, taking a Warden Thread Item to Rank 8 or a Master Thread Item to Rank 7 costs the same as naming a Circle 8 spell upon it. If you were to name the Blade Fury spell (Circle 8) upon a sword, then that sword would get a second damage roll at a step equal to the test result of the spellcaster's WIL+10. That's permanently and for no strain cost. For a spellcaster with WIL 8 and Willforce 8 that's an average result of 26. Even with WIL 6 and no Willforce that's still an extra damage roll at Step 16. Yet if you look at Spelldancer, a Warden Thread Item, the Rank 8 ability is just +4 electric damage for the cost of 1 strain. Bloodsong and Guardcutter, also Warden Thread Items, gain Damage Step 9 at Rank 8. Similarly, the Rank 7 effect for Niku's Bow, a Master level Thread Item, is just +2 to Physical and Spell Defense. It's just not on the same league.

I grant that Blade Fury is an exceptionally good spell, but you see pretty much across the board that the given LP cost of spells and the given LP costs of thread items don't match at all. A weapon enchanted to mimic Dragon's Breath or Void Wave (both 9th Circle spells) should logically provide the effect for 14,400 LP, such that a Journeyman thread weapon would be able to do it at Rank 10, and a Novice one at Rank 11. Yet there are no weapons that come anywhere close to that.

Either Thread Items need to get a massive boost, or else Spell Naming needs to get hit hard with the nerf bat. Because otherwise there's a very strange power disparity between the one and the other in terms of equivalent LP costs.

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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Panda » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:04 am

I don't think anyone will argue that Named spells distort everything as soon as they become available. The rest of the systems mostly play nice with each other with regard to costs and what you get out of it. Which is to say the latter half of your ultimatum is clearly the problem child in every scenario.
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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Slimcreeper » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:06 am

This is why DnD has charges for wands and staves, right? I don't know that that's right for ED though . . . what if Naming a spell is a ritual that requires a number of magicians equal to the spell circle that all know and can cast the spell?

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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Lys » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:33 am

Ultimatum? I'm in no position to be issuing ultimatums to the writers, that would be very rude and presumptions of me. I'm sorry if it sounds like I was. My post was just pointing out something I noticed in the system that's bugged me for ages, and I figured I might as well bring it up. I love Earthdawn to pieces and I'm very optimistic that 4th Edition will be my favourite edition. I have faith that whatever you guys do or don't do will be for the best. I just wanted to see if anything was being done about that in particular. If you're toning down spell naming somehow, then that fixes the problem! I would have preferred boosting thread items, because there are a bunch of spells that are really neat bases for weapon enchantment effects, but anything that makes the system more coherent is good.

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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby kosmit » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:43 am

I think that getting full spell effect for Named Spell should cost huge amount of LP or True Elements or have some prerequisites that would scale up bonuses.

Lately my players came up with an idea of casting permanent Improve Karma on them so you can imagine how OP it is ;)
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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Stormcrow » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:05 am


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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Panda » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:34 am

Perhaps ultimatum was not the best word choice. It was not intended to imply you are somehow demanding anything of us. My apologies.

The ability to abuse Named spells by using them as intended was a known problem going into this edition. It is a neat element of the setting, so taking it off the table isn't a fun option. While they certainly can be dispelled, that can cause issues at some tables since that was paid for with precious, precious Legend Points (even if it was a pittance by that time).

Elevating everything else to that level would be problematic. What do thread items start to look like if premanent Improve Karma is the stick used to measure effects? I don't even want to conceive of that. I'm having enough trouble with just the Bands of Fortune.
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Re: Questions and answers...

Postby Tanthalas » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:44 am

I don't think that 'Named Spells' should be the bar that you measure Thread Items against. In third edition there was a side bar on Named Spells that said 'these are overpowered, a GM should be very careful with what they allow'. I feel like the Named Spells mechanic as written needs a major rewrite. OR the rules could just need a sentence that says 'Named Spells require very rare spell components, securing these is an adventure unto itself.'

I'm not sure about the intent, but in my Barsaive, Named Spells are extremely rare. Only really the purview of the Denairistas and Dragons. I let my players get a few when they hit somewhere around 11th circle and our campaign was winding down, and they were still brokenly powerful.
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