Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
Xandarth
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:48 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Xandarth » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:06 pm

1st Ed it's pretty clearly worded but also causes illusionists to be drastically under-powered.

"Characters who are suspicious of an object, effect or creature may take an action to disbelieve it. The character makes a Disbelieve check against the Disbelieve target number for the illusion. If the test is successful, the illusion vanishes."

So a disbelieve check is done on a per spell basis and success removes the effect of the spell, which in the case of illusionary damage spells is damage and Wounds.

Obviously this makes illusionists pretty weak as anyone can disbelieve an illusion and immediately cure another character of illusionary damage.
And you could do it at pretty much any time until the wound or damage disappeared; so munchkins / rules lawyers could attempt to repeatedly force sensing tests with first aid.

---------

2nd Ed tried to fix that and did a pretty good job for the most part (with one glaring contradiction in their set of rules):

Firstly, they increased the cost of attempting Disbelieve tests from 1 strain to 2.

Secondly, they added a penalty to a character attempting to disbelieve something that wasn't an illusion. -3 to all defences against the supposed illusion. "Pffft! Any idiot could tell these griffins are illusions. Arrrrrgh! Quite realistic ones. Ugh!!! This really does feel like I'm being disemboweled!

Next, they established that Disbelieving an illusion didn't stop the spell working. It only stopped it working on you. Telling another character that they were under the influence of illusionary magic didn't cause the person to immediately disbelieve the spell. If convinced they merely gained a bonus to their next Disbelieve check (+2 - +5 steps depending on how much they trust each other, how well they communicate with each other and how mean a GM you are), which they would still have to spend strain to attempt and they would still have the penalties caused by Wounds (illusions or actual) they were under the effect of to contend with.

-----------

Finally they set up some rules for dealing with illusionary damage (which are contradictory just to make it amusing) :lol:

"If a character receives a Wound due to illusionary damage, that Wound (and it's ill-effects) are gone by sunrise the next day. Illusionary damage however, must be healed at a normal rate. Only a successful Disbelieve test attempted immediately after damage is received can prevent the damage from occurring, otherwise the Adept's Pattern will adjust, causing the illusionary damage to turn into normal damage which must be healed by normal means.

Since in 2nd Ed your first Disbelieve check for a spell didn't take an action that's fairly unambiguous. Whenever you get hit by a combat spell you can opt to immediately disbelieve it, spend 2 strain and if you make the check you immediately succeed. If you attempt to disbelieve a spell that isn't an illusion, you take 2 strain and lower your spell defense by 3.

The last rule is why I was forced to keep a column for illusionary damage anyway:

In the disbelief section, they say

"The Disbelief test is made using a Disbelieve step equal to the sum of the character's Perception Step and the highest Circle they have accomplished in a Discipline. The Gamemaster will assign the target character a bonus or penalty to their Disbelieve Step for the purposes of this test based on the validity (in the GM's opinion) of the reasons the player gave for disbelief.
blah blah blah
If the attempt fails, then the character has failed to break out of the illusion. He still suffers the affects of the illusion but may attempt to break out of the illusion next round.
blah blah blah
If the attempt succeeds, however, then the character has disbelieved the illusion, and the Damage (and Wounds) caused by it disappear immediately.



-----------

Clearly there is some mix up between what they had just said about illusionary damage immediately becoming real damage immediately on the previous page.
That means you have two possible ways to interpret the last two rules:

First you could assume that illusion damage received from both [large scale, maintained illusions] and [illusionary creatures] remains illusion damage until the illusion is dispelled at which point all the damage received while interacting with the illusion immediately disappears, while illusionary damage from direct combat illusions resolves into real damage immediately. This is terribly clunky as you then need to catagorise all of the illusions in the game into one group or the other.

Your other option is to assume that LRG had a different definition of what the word "immediately" means to the rest of the English speaking world. If you assume that when they said "immediately" they really meant something like "A little while after interaction with the illusion... lets say up till 5 minutes (it doesn't have to be five minutes, I'm just spitballing here) after combat ends or 5 minutes (ditto) after the characters stops interacting with the illusion, the Adept's Pattern changes the illusionary damage into normal damage, which must be healed by normal means." the rules all make sense and fit with their flavour text about Adept's waking up with no wounds and cursing the fact they didn't take the time to try and disbelieve in all the damage spells they had taken. :lol:

Either way, you'll need to keep track of illusionary wounds and damage so the 4 column approach is the best way to manage it.

Lys
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:38 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Lys » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:01 pm

See, my interpretation of the rules there is to just say that if you fail to disbelieve illusionary damage when it hits, it becomes real damage, and that's the end of it. You're seeing a contradiction in the rules saying that if a disbelief attempt fails you can try again the next round, and the rules saying that damage becomes real if you fail to immediately disbelieve it. I think they simply mean that you can always keep trying to disbelieve an on-ongoing illusion, which is reasonable. However, damage is not an on-going illusion, it becomes real if you fail to disbelieve it when you receive it. By the next round there's nothing to disbelieve, it's not an illusion any more, so you can't. Way I see it, there's no contradiction, just sloppy wording. Conveniently, this also means you don't need to keep track of every single instance of damage inflicted in a fight, which I would find tedious, boring, and not worth the effort.

User avatar
Tattered Rags
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:44 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Tattered Rags » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:15 pm


Xandarth
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:48 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Xandarth » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:25 pm

One version of the rule states you only get one attempt to Disbelieve the illusionary damage and then the damage becomes real and must be healed by normal means, however all Wounds and effects from them disappear if you make a later disbelieve check.

The next a few paragraphs later says you can attempt to break free once per turn and that once you succeed all damage and wounds disappear.

That's about as contradictory as it gets. ;)

User avatar
Tattered Rags
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:44 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Tattered Rags » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:33 pm

It makes more sense to understand the second part in light of the first, as Lys had done, than attempt to redefine the first part according to the wording of the second.

Telarus_KSC
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:26 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Telarus_KSC » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:31 pm

Last edited by Telarus_KSC on Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Panda
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:40 am
Location: Corvallis, OR
Contact:

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Panda » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:26 am

Clearly my hints were too subtle: Illusion mechanics have been redone. For all of the reasons above.
Earthdawn Developer and I have a gaming , though, let's face it, it is really an Earthdawn blog which also happens to have some reviews.

User avatar
kosmit
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:49 pm
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby kosmit » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:51 am

Maybe you could make some preview of them? :D
Duvvelsheyss

Xandarth
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:48 am
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Xandarth » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:48 am

That's good to hear. Would love to see some previews too.

It would be great if illusionists got the ability to cast illusionary versions of many Wizard, Nethermancer and Elementalist spells too. ;)

User avatar
Panda
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:40 am
Location: Corvallis, OR
Contact:

Re: Developer's Blog -- A pair of new spell mechanics

Postby Panda » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:03 pm

I don't feel comfortable sharing details until the topic has been given a green light. Which is generally heralded by a blog post on the topic. What I can say is illusions were addressed specifically for clarity and simplicity. While they may be unpopular (I certainly hope they will be popular, but it is impossible to please everyone), there should no longer be large areas of ambiguity in the mechanics and interaction with the world. Also, the amount of rolling involved should be reduced.

As to having versions of other disciplines' spells - I hope you are pleasantly surprised.
Earthdawn Developer and I have a gaming , though, let's face it, it is really an Earthdawn blog which also happens to have some reviews.


[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Return to “Product Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest