ED3 - Named Spells and Items

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TheQuicksilver
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ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby TheQuicksilver » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:04 pm

Okay, so, I pretty much hate everything dealing with creating items in Earthdawn using named spells. Mainly because there seems to be no real "mechanic" to it. I've read a couple of the past threads here on the topic, and don't really feel any clearer.

I should clarify, I understand what the books SAYS about creating a magic item with a named spell. My issue is the effect. Making the effects of many spells, especially boosters, seems to risk gravely unbalancing the game. The book says that the duration must be longer than 1 round, otherwise the spell is considered "temporary" and can't be named. But I'm trying to reconcile that against spells that give a big bonus for a short period.

So, let's take an example.

A Wizard wants to create the Ring of Avoid Blow (based on Dodge Boost - don't ask me why he wants to name it after a talent, ultimately irrelevant at the moment). This grants a +3 to avoid blow tests, and normally has a duration of Rank+5 rounds, in this case 10 for Spellcasting, for a total of 15 rounds. But, with the named spell, the effect would be permanent. Simple, right? But it's also CHEAP in LP cost overall, and with some well planned healing, it's not out of the realm of possibility for someone to create, say, 10 rings - one for each finger. Now consider this principle applied to a spell like Counterspell, which can target a group, and gives extra bonuses for each success level. Suddenly, you have a relatively cheap item providing a ridiculously powerful effect.

Basically, I'm wondering how others have handled this, if it's come up:
- Preventing a group from turning a spellcaster into a magic item factory
- Keeping said magic items from grossly unbalancing a character (I'm thinking about adding a depatterning component for every permanent magic item, for instance, not just blood charms)
- Finding ways to corrupt, inhibit, destroy items without obvious and tedious dispelling attempts every time they enter a major combat
- Dealing with stacking effects over and over with different items (i.e. the 10 rings scenario above)
- Is the LP cost just too cheap in the book? Should it be upped significantly?

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Drucifer
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby Drucifer » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:39 pm

In my Barsaive:

If a player wishes to enchant an item using a named spell then they must go through the spell creation process. For every named spell. the reason I make them do this is because each named spell is unique, its astral signature is unique and it is a Pattern Item of the character because they have invested so much of their time and effort and legend to create a unique spell pattern.

I might add that I layer this on top of the regular spell naming rules.

In reference to your 5 points
1) Item creation takes legend points that the spell player needs to us to develop their character. If they are wasting them on item creation for random stuff let them but keep treating the caster as though they are the circle they should be.

2) Remember the rule of three. 10 Rings will do the character no good if they intend to use other bonuses like talents, skills, other magic items. Also remember that items with "use" in the description require the character to hold the item in some way. (This I remember Arma mentioning from the older forums).

3) Plan ahead, know what they have and how they tend to use it. (option 1) Item destruction is not difficult if the adversary has a major astral component. (option 2) Prepare a horror and have it mark each of the items created using a particular component. (option #3) Destruction of the astral pattern destroys the item. (option #4) it is your Barsaive impose restrictions you feel will prevent abuse.

4) See #2

5) See the description I wrote before this list.
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Gkeckley
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby Gkeckley » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:06 pm

Actually unless the spell states otherwise you only gain the benefit of 1 casting of the spell. Plus you can only have the same spell active up to a number of times equal to your Spellcasting rank. So in your example, to have 10 permanent Dodge Boost spells then you need Spellcasting at rank 10. You can then ditribute the rings to 10 different people. No one person would be able to benefit from more than one such ring. See page 141 Players Handbook. The rule is in the last paragraph in the left column. That being said Named spells can be very powerfull, and as a GM if you allow them then they need to be monitored very closely.

ukhata
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby ukhata » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:37 am

here are my 2 cents

Basically, I'm wondering how others have handled this, if it's come up:
- Preventing a group from turning a spellcaster into a magic item factory
making items is a time consuming process. if they wanna spend time doing *beep* all while the caster churns out items, make sure they know that their apathy has a result (quest ends, people die, dragon interferes etc etc)
- Keeping said magic items from grossly unbalancing a character (I'm thinking about adding a depatterning component for every permanent magic item, for instance, not just blood charms)
as for unbalancing. remind them simply that the opponent (other adepts) can also do these things. what a player can, an NPC can. also having magic items active costs threads for thread items in case he makes those.
another thing, in case the caster makes a permanent shield mist ring, let the caster know he will have a constant gof around him, which will make people less likely to interact with him.
- Finding ways to corrupt, inhibit, destroy items without obvious and tedious dispelling attempts every time they enter a major combat
drucifer answered this beautifully.
- Dealing with stacking effects over and over with different items (i.e. the 10 rings scenario above)
spells never stack. spell efects from named spells also do not stack.
- Is the LP cost just too cheap in the book? Should it be upped significantly?
dont forget the other costs. you need true elements or other mystic stuff for the named spell to hold.
you dont simply make a circled of normal pine wood and enchant it. you need a circlet of gold infused with true air, a bit of orichalcum or maybe a circle of living crystal.
as such limit the funds your players have to limit these kinds of stuff as well.

regards
Ukhata

Telarus_KSC
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby Telarus_KSC » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:17 am

I see that a lot of the Enchanting chapter (where one of the options is to "template" a magical item from a spell's pattern) is being confused with the Named Spell ritual. They are very different processes with very different results. I just got a job, so I'm not sure I can address that until this evening.

TheQuicksilver
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby TheQuicksilver » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:57 pm

Telarus_KSC, yeah, I try to be careful to distinguish between enchanting vs attaching named spells, but it's tough since from a strictly semantic point of view, it's all really "enchanting." Plus it's hard to say "item with a named spell attached" over and over, hehe.

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone!

Telarus_KSC
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby Telarus_KSC » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:39 am

Here's where I see the difference:

Named Spells - This turns a spell being cast by the spellcaster into a Named Magical Pattern. This nearly makes it an "entity" of it's own (at least as much as a Named Threaded Shield that repairs damage over time, for example). Naming something individualizes it and gives it a True Pattern capable of drawing on the (very generous ammount of) raw magic/mana in astral space. You MUST cast the spell on a valid target. Therefor, no "Rings of Named Dodge Boost".. Dodge Boost targets "a character" and so must be cast on such when Named. Conversely, Flame Weapon "enflames a weapon," and is cast VS either the "target or wielder's Spell Defense" (whichever is higher). Thus, Named Flame Weapons can live in the item. Now you understand why Naming a spell that has "character" as it's target can get tricky for the Namegiver. Also, once Named the spell is "an independent astral entity outside [the caster's] control". It can interact with other Named Magical Patterns and grow in complexity. I've eventually had a Named Flamewhip spirit gain consciousness, and the Elementalist (a winding) eventually freed it from being bound to his weapon.


On the other hand...

Enchanting via Spell Template - here you can let the GM "break the spell mechanics". You can use direct damage spells, and you can have items that are "triggered" by saying a command word and/or taking strain for every Thread required. Items that give effects to their weilders (breaking the targeting of say Dodge Boost, as mentioned previously, to make a ring of Dodge Boost...). These spell-like effects MUST be powered by some high-mana ingredient (orichalum, a rare white-heron's fight feathers, or silver dust dried in the moonlight.. that sort of schtick). I also recommend that any spell-templated item that A) can use more than one effect, B) has an effect templated from a circle 5+ spell, or C) provides a spell-life effect that is "always on" (I tend to limit this to low circles as well) be a fully Named Threaded Item. This leaves circles 1-3 spells for "common" magical item effects, and thus resolves some of the "magic item bloat" possible from PC spellcasters.

Hope that was helpful.
Last edited by Telarus_KSC on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

TheQuicksilver
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby TheQuicksilver » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:04 am

That was intensely helpful actually. The issue of targeting hadn't even occurred to me, but makes perfect sense now that you lay it out.

ukhata
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby ukhata » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:35 am

i agree, i missed the targetting as well, allso partly because i went directly to the "enchant via spell template" part :P

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kosmit
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Re: ED3 - Named Spells and Items

Postby kosmit » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:28 am

Improve karma. Permanent. Most power full thing ever?

If my mage will cast it as Named Spell on other adept he only need to speed LP, suffer Strain and Blood Wound that could be normally healed, am I right? Any permanent dmg?

What if I want to create a ring granting that effect to character wearing it? I need to use spell template on an item because of targeting issue?
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