Spell Balance

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
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Re: Spell Balance

Postby arma » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:39 am

In ED3, they both affect only selected targets.
(Flame Darts also affected your allies in EDC, and I assume, in ED1 -- it's always been the case that "supplement spells" had a chance to be worse than "core rule spells" overall, because the supplement spells were designed with the Spell Design system, and these systems do not produce balanced spells).

This may be a "lost in translation" case because of how ranges changed in ED3. The main thing about Flame Darts in EDC was that it affected a 3x3 area, so that at least made a noteworthy difference. No radius, no point of impact. Now, it doesn't have a "from center" in ED3 either...

Removing the flame requirement would normally be worth about a circle only.
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Re: Spell Balance

Postby Nerik » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:25 pm


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Re: Spell Balance

Postby Telarus_KSC » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:35 am

It's one of those idiosyncratic things about the ED Magic Metaphysics.

Spell casting in ED occurs because the caster "draws an arc in astral space between two Patterns". Therefor, if the spell mentions Targets at all, the caster can choose them (usually freely, sometimes with restrictions based on the spell mechanics). If the spell says it is cast at a specific Hex, and has an area of effect, use the default AoE rules on p140 of the Players Guide (Spells -> Area of Effect). These usually avoid Target Spell Defense as the difficulty, see below.

Blizzard Sphere and Death Rain are explicit about this (blizzard sphere marks the enemies, up to Spellcasting Rank... death rain marks your friends, and hits everyone else). Fireball says "target group in the area of effect". I take it to mean that those targets are the ones who look like they've been napalmed after the flash-bang happens. This selectivity (is one of the things which) offsets the multi-round Threadweaving/Spellcasting process.

Spells to compare to are ones which have static Spellcasting Difficulty (Drastic Temperature, which affects "each creature passing through or remaining in the sphere"), or some other way to determine difficulty than Target Spell Defense.

Now, on Flame Darts, the Highest Spell Defense is pulled from "all those within a chosen 2yd (1 hex) radius circle." The damage is "inflicted on each character in the area". I read this as effecting the whole AoE area, no calling out targets. I don't think this is balanced vs Fireball, but not sure how I'd change it.

Here's an idea. Drop the threads required to 1, and then add "If the caster weaves an additional thread to the spell before casting, the Effect Step raises to WIL+9".

Boom, suddenly it's more versatile than Fireball at close range because it has a weaker version that can be 1-round cast in an Enhanced Matrix, without a fire-source. It's not as "elegant" as Fireball, in that it's just indiscriminate fiery shrapnel, but if powered up with that second thread can be deadlier.

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Re: Spell Balance

Postby The_Gun_Nut » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:14 pm

Personally, I'd just make fireball indescriminate and flame darts into the selected targets kind of thing. It would help justify the higher Circle.
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Re: Spell Balance

Postby LouP » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:29 pm

Hello,

Just a quick FYI about the Spell Design rules in Magic: A Manual of Mystic Secrets. Those rules were reverse-engineered from the spells in the ED1 rulebook and companion. All of the effects (area effect, multiple targets, etc.), minimum circle levels, etc, are based on the idea that the original spells represent the rules by which spells are created in ED. It should be possible to re-create all the original ED1 spells (or at least *very* close approximations of them) using that system.

One of the assumptions I made when designing that system was that the spells in the original ED1 rulebook and companion were created by very competent magicians who spent considerable time and effort to make the spells the best they could be. Not every spell was built assuming an Extraordinary success on every test, but most presume pretty significant levels of success (the idea being that spells represent years of research and fine-tuning and have become "standard" versions of these spells). The same was mostly true for the spells in M:AMoMS or AMoB, but since those were built using the spell design rules, some oddities cropped up along the way.

To reply to this specific instance, I'm not convinced that Fireball is clearly superior to Flame Darts given the distinctions pointed about above, specifically no need for fire source and the ability to hit specific targets. The increased number of required threads and thread weaving difiiculty and slightly lower damage more than makes up for the fact that you could fire Flame Darts at a target in a close combat with a teammate and not worry about roasting your friend.


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Lou Prosperi

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Re: Spell Balance

Postby LouP » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:57 pm

Hello,

I just did a quick check, and it turns out that Flame Darts did NOT allow the caster to hit specific targets (in EDC). The darts affect any/all targets within the area of effect. This makes the Circle disparity between the spells a little more significant, but I'm still not convinced the Fireball is objective superior in all ways.

I also discovered that (at least as far as I can tell) that in ED3 both spells affect all targets within the area of effect and neither allow the caster to select targets. If they are intended to allow that, the rules don't really explain how.

I also noticed that Fireball in ED3 is significantly less powerful than on ED1 (half the range and area of effect). So much for elementalists using this spell like artillery.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

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Re: Spell Balance

Postby arma » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:17 pm

Best kaer anywhere.

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Re: Spell Balance

Postby Meat Puzzle » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:59 pm

I'm not sure I understand how you can release a fireball into a group, have it explode and then only some get hurt? What do the flames wash over your friends like a warm summer breeze doing no harm? Also just to clarify because it is getting convoluted, both Fireball and Flame Darts effect only targets the caster chooses no matter who is in the AoE?

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Re: Spell Balance

Postby Anunnaki » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:30 pm

Hiya,

Wading in (it's been a while, so please be gentle). :)

Fire Darts was a spell from the ED1 "Arcane Mysteries" book. There wasn't much to differentiate it from Fireball (more threads, two Circles higher, less damage, shorter range, lesser area of effect). And I think it's sneaked through the cracks through EDC and ED3 without much to differentiate it still. Mea culpa!

I would probably make Flame Darts able to be targeted against specific foes in the area of effect, as opposed to the Fireball's more arbitrary "gonna get 'em all, friend or foe" effect (Fireball is supposed to affect everyone in the area of effect). This isn't how it's worded in ED1/EDC or ED3, but it's in keeping with the "darts" effect. Now, whether this is worth a two-Circle difference... I don't think it is. Certainly making it a Sixth Circle spell with 2 threads or a Seventh Circle spell with 1 thread could be considered. I favor making it a Sixth Circle spell -- it helps improve the number of spells available to Elementalists at Sixth Circle and with 2 threads doesn't eclipse the Fireball for use (more effort required to target specific opponents).

Hope this helps!

Take kaer, James

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Re: Spell Balance

Postby arma » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:43 am

Best kaer anywhere.


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